Daughter attacked on school bus

[Bamberfish]

You have two separate incidents: One in which the two parties called each other names and then hurled books at each other, and another where the girl was assaulted by three subjects. In the first she is arguably an equal participant, and, possibly, could be considered the primary aggressor.

On what basis could my daughter be considered the "primary" agressor?

-My daughter was called "fat white bitch" when all she was doing was talking to her friends. This was a common every day occurance on this bus. Some days it's "white trash". Other days it's "white bitch". When they feel especially generous, it's "white devil." They call my daughter's friend, who is white and somewhat tall and thin, the "white ugly stick." They boy that sits with them is graced with being told on a daily basis that no one at the school likes him because he is gay (I have no idea whether or not he is).

-My daughter had the book thrown at her first

-My daughter was the one pummeled by 3 kids, not vice versa

How does that make her even suspect of being the primary aggressor?!?!

[calebb]

-My daughter had the book thrown at her first

-My daughter was the one pummeled by 3 kids, not vice versa

How does that make her even suspect of being the primary aggressor?!?!

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92639&page=1

I'm not sure if you noticed this reply. (this thread has grown quite rapidly)

[Bamberfish]

There are supposedly two witnesses who will state that the girl was called of all things "white" - which you apparently believe to be a racial epithet - before she spouted the N-word? So what? The investigation apparently correctly concluded that calling somebody "white" is not a racial epithet.

No, she wasn't called "white". She was called "fat white bitch." Vast difference. Wasn't it you who spoke regarding context?

Do you believe that black people get to decide what is offensive to black people...and that they also get to decide what is and isn't offensive to white people? If so, you are quite mistaken. That's as racist as it gets. Black school administrators do not get to decide what is offensive to white children.

Tell me...what do you find offensive about the 'n' word? Is it because it's hurtful? Because it is hateful? Why is it hurtful? Because it degrades the person it's aimed towards?

Explain then, how you think a young girl being called fat, and having the color of her skin integrated into the insult, is any less painful or hateful. Because the hatefullness of the act of calling someone "fat" is obvious, especially when thrown out so maliciously, the addition of "white" into the descriptive slur insinuates that being white is also undesirable. The slur degraded her race, as well as her physical appearance. Get it?

When I asked my daughter why on God's earth she used that word, she didn't hesitate in giving me her answer: "Because I wanted to say something to them that would hurt them as bad as what they were saying hurt me."

And you know what? That makes all the sense in the world to me. Having been a young girl at one time, and knowing how self-conscious one is at that age, and how easily trampled a young girl's self-esteem is at that age.... I understand completely.

Black children do not have the market on being hurt or offended. They do not get special priviledge to aim as much hate and hurt at others without impunity. And they do not get to decide what should and should not offend others...while all the time claiming ownership over what offends them. Anyone who emboldens them into thinking that they do, is not only doing them a grave disservice, they are doing so at the risk of the safety and welfare of other children around them.

No person, regardless of their skin color or history, has that right.

[cdwjava]

B.S. Either all race-based slurs carry significance...or none do.

Sorry, but not all courts will see it that way. Generic insults are not as likely to be seen as inherently provocative as racial epithets.

I notice you had nothing to say about the antagonistic words the black kids said towards my daughter. Or the racial slurs. Or the threats. Why is that? Are you one of those people that thinks only blacks can be hurt by words? Antagonized? Bullied?

Probably because the courts - at least in our state - tend to hold certain racial epithets out to be more provocative. Certainly, it is an arguable presumption. Whether your state's courts hold the words out to be criminal or provocative is another question.

She was treated for multiple contusions to her head, and a concussion. She was also given muscle relaxants for spasms in her neck and back. That doesn't even cover the counseling she will need to feel safe again....if ever she does.

It sounds like there is a good case for battery with great bodily injury against the three who pummeled her, then.

- Carl

[cdwjava]

On what basis could my daughter be considered the "primary" agressor?

If the evidence shows that she "started it", a court might see the whole thing as being instigated by her. While not excusing the actions of the three who apparently beat her down severely, it might tend to mitigate the severity of their actions.

-My daughter was called "fat white bitch" when all she was doing was talking to her friends. This was a common every day occurance on this bus.

How often has this been reported to the school? If it was never reported, then, for the purposes of prior instances, it will likely be considered to have never happened. An undocumented pattern is no pattern at all.

-My daughter had the book thrown at her first

It does not excuse her throwing a book at the other chil in retaliation. Both can be charged with battery.

-My daughter was the one pummeled by 3 kids, not vice versa

As I said, in that instance she is a victim of the battery. But, it does not mean that a court won't find that she brought on the incident by engaging the original child in a round of trash talk.

How does that make her even suspect of being the primary aggressor?!?!

See above.

I'm not saying that it DOES. However, WE don't know the evidence. WE don't know what all the other occupants of the bus have told the police. WE don't know the other side of the story. The other participants will obviously have a different account. Which version of events will be found to have occurred will depend in great part on what the NEUTRAL (non-involved, non-friends to the involved subjects) parties have to say.

- Carl

[cdwjava]

What state did this happen in??

- Carl

[Bamberfish]

I'm not sure if you noticed this reply. (this thread has grown quite rapidly)

Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

There's a difference between that case and what we are discussing here, because in that case, the husband used the racial slur without there having been any provocation involving race. In other words, there was nothing racial involved in the incident up to that time. Up to that point, the incident involved a man who had asssaulted his wife to stop her from publishing a picture of him...nothing more. No racial involvement until he chose to use that word. The racial content was unprovoked.

He also used the word in conjunction with a physical threat, which can be considered assault. ("'You bring that n——- up here. I want to kick his f—-ing ass,'"...is what he allegedly said.)
P.S. I think that if the story is as told in that article, then the fact that the referee was not charged with assault on the woman is astounding and so very, very wrong.

In any case....

As a woman, I've been hit on by some really dumb guys with some really dumb lines. I recall a guy one time that was very drunk and should have had "ass" written on his forehead. After making a fool of himself, he grinned largely and asked me "What do you think? Do you like what you see?" And I responded "I think I see an ass, and no...I don't like it." He didn't like that answer either...but he didn't beat me up for it.

I would never have gone up to this guy and told him he was an ass just because I thought he was...but when he asked me, I told him what I thought. That's what you get for asking. You open that door.

This kid asked my daughter "What the F**k you looking at?"...and she responded with what she felt she was looking at. Granted, she used the word she thought would have the greatest effect because she wanted to hurt them back for what they had said to her, but he opened the door by asking her. She didn't just sling that word at him without provocation, the way they did to her. He asked her a question and she responded. They had already used a racial slur against her, and thus the door was opened wide for the response he got.

Don't get me wrong, I don't condone the use of that word and we had quite the conversation about it in our household that night...but we're talking context here now. He used racial slurs against someone, and then when he asked a question and got a racial slur against himself in return...suddenly he thought it was wrong to use racial slurs. Life doesn't work that way.

[Mr. Knowitall]

You're just being argumentative. Surely you aren't going to try to tell us that "fat" or "bitch" are racial epithets, even as you implicitly admit that calling somebody white is not a racial epithet. You want somebody to tell you that your daughter is pure as the driven snow, all of this is somebody else's fault, everybody but her is lying? Then talk to your daughter, as she's about the only other person who's going to see it that way.

Given all due respect to your emotional attachment to your daughter, I need hip waders to get through the crap you're spewing.

[Bamberfish]

Sorry, but not all courts will see it that way. Generic insults are not as likely to be seen as inherently provocative as racial epithets.

How is it generic? If a black person asked you "What the F**k are you looking at?", and you responded by saying "a black a**h*l*"...do you think the courts would find that generic? I'm not trying to be inflamatory, I mean this. Think about it. When you place a person's race into it, it becomes racially inflamatory...doesn't matter what your race. You are integrating their race into your insult...thus you are insulting their race.

Probably because the courts - at least in our state - tend to hold certain racial epithets out to be more provocative. Certainly, it is an arguable presumption. Whether your state's courts hold the words out to be criminal or provocative is another question.

In our state, a hate crime is defined as "a crime or violent incident perpetrated against someone solely because of his or her race, religion, or national origin/ethnicity." The states Ethnic Intimidation statute makes it a general misdemeanor to assault another person, damage or deface someone's property, or threaten to do either of these things, because of that person's race, color, religion or national origin.

My daughter didn't do any of that. A black kid used a racial slur against her, and then another black kid asked her what the F**k* she was looking at when she glared at him in response...and she answered him with what she thought she was looking at. I'll be the first to say her choice of words was in very poor judgement, but I feel pretty certain - based on how things went and the followup actions of the girl - that no matter what her answer was...she would have been beaten anyway. My daughter is a human being. And every human being has their limits. She was fed up with hearing this hateful crap from them over and over, and she chose to fight back with her own hurtful words...and these kids weren't going to tolerate a taste of their own medicine. They were looking for a fight.

Whether anyone wants to talk about it or not, there is a violent sub-culture in the black community. It's a culture of hatefulness and violence, where one earns respect for taunting and teasing, and emotionally hurting other kids who aren't like them. Where one earns respect for the number of kids that one gets suspended by picking a fight with them. These kids don't care if they get suspended...it's just a day off from school for them. But for kids like my daughter, who are working their butts off in honors classes, trying to earn scholarships...suspension is devastating. And these bullies know that. And they get a sick thrill from it, and they get respect from their friends for it. It's stomach-turning.

They pick and pick at the most vulnerable of kids, until that kid can't take it anymore and finally verbally spars back. The black kid(s) then suddenly act all offended and brutally assault the child for "dissing" them. Then they boast and brag about it for weeks. This was not a kid who lashed out physically because he was emotionally hurt by a word...this was a kid who was looking for a fight. This kid wanted another notch on his belt.

The vulnerable kids are the ones that are white, who don't follow the rap and hip-hop culture. They are the brainy kids, the kids who dress differently, the kids who are into art and math. It's the kids who are overweight, or wear glasses, or are shy or passive. Its the kids who are just trying to mind their own business and make it through the school day without being harassed. These kids are the ones that are forced to attend a school where they are the minority, for the sake of diversity...where parents cannot request a transfer and escape comes only for those with enough money to pay for private school. Its the kids who don't fit into the dominant culture, and where the dominant culture never lets them forget who rules the school.

It sounds like there is a good case for battery with great bodily injury against the three who pummeled her, then.

I just want it stopped. I want the double standards to stop. I want recognition from the school that this is a problem and needs to be addressed. I want the school to stop pandering to the race-baiters who cry "racism" everytime a violent black child is suspended or expelled. I want the school to handle incidents such as this with truth and fairness...rather than what is most convenient for them.

[cdwjava]

How is it generic? If a black person asked you "What the F**k are you looking at?", and you responded by saying "a black a**h*l*"...do you think the courts would find that generic?

Possibly. Since I am not the court in question, I can't say. However, if I were to respond using the always-foul "N" word, I just might find myself in violation of PC 415(3) (in California).

I'm not trying to be inflamatory, I mean this. Think about it. When you place a person's race into it, it becomes racially inflamatory...doesn't matter what your race. You are integrating their race into your insult...thus you are insulting their race.

Sorry, but the courts have tended to hold certain words and comments to be more provocative than others. Being called a "fat, white b****" is not likely to be seen as likely to provoke a violent response as the ubiquitous "N" word.

In our state, a hate crime is defined as "a crime or violent incident perpetrated against someone solely because of his or her race, religion, or national origin/ethnicity."

What state is that?

Plus, we're not talking about a "hate crime" here - though, I suppose one could make an argument for it against one or both girls.

The states Ethnic Intimidation statute makes it a general misdemeanor to assault another person, damage or deface someone's property, or threaten to do either of these things, because of that person's race, color, religion or national origin.

Given the facts as you've outlined them, I doubt that can be demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt against either party. Not knowing the state you are in, it is impossible to say whether the epithets or slurs might be construed as "fighting words" or some similar criminal provocation.

I just want it stopped. I want the double standards to stop. I want recognition from the school that this is a problem and needs to be addressed.

Again I ask, did you or your daughter - or any of the other alleged victims of this abuse on the bus - EVER tell the school authorities? If no one ever said anything, then for all intents the previous behavior did not happen.

I want the school to stop pandering to the race-baiters who cry "racism" everytime a violent black child is suspended or expelled. I want the school to handle incidents such as this with truth and fairness...rather than what is most convenient for them.

You can become active in the PTA ... you can run for the school board ... you can become politically active. The bottom line is that if you "want" a change in something, you have to step up and advocate for the change. Shaking your fist won't effect any sort of change. Becoming part of the solution will.

In the meantime, check into the suspension appeals process at your school. You may even consider consulting an attorney for assistance if you have the resources. Also, contact the SRO directly and see what the status of the investigation might be, and ask if there is anything you can do to help.

- Carl