Results 1 to 10 of 35

Hybrid View

  1. #1

    Default If You Are Innocent Until Proven Guilty

    Then why is our court system set up to the point where it is often more expensive to fight for your innocence, then it is to in many cases to take the false charge and move on?

    To me that's like a business that supposed to be doing X, is setup and runs to do Y, while advertising X.

    Again I;m an extremist when it comes to right and wrong, if I'm not wrong I'll go down financially fighting to prove it, but most people don't have the faith and courage it takes to risk what little they have to be like that. Although they should, we only have about 50 good years here, why willingly waste life shackled by false charges.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    8,006

    Default Re: If You Are Innocent Until Proven Guilty

    You are innocent until proven guilty. The trial is the state trying to prove your guilt.

    Your analogy is incorrect. The system is working the way it is supposed to.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    16,474

    Default Re: If You Are Innocent Until Proven Guilty

    Quote Quoting free9man
    View Post
    You are innocent until proven guilty. The trial is the state trying to prove your guilt.

    Your analogy is incorrect. The system is working the way it is supposed to.
    I disagree. I know how the system is supposed to work, but its honestly not working that way. Innocent people plead guilty all the time because they are terrified of worse things happening and/or because they cannot afford to fight for their innocence. Its just become too expensive. Lots of people blame the lawyers for that, but realistically its not their fault.

  4. #4

    Default Re: If You Are Innocent Until Proven Guilty

    Quote Quoting llworking
    View Post
    I disagree. I know how the system is supposed to work, but its honestly not working that way. Innocent people plead guilty all the time because they are terrified of worse things happening and/or because they cannot afford to fight for their innocence. Its just become too expensive. Lots of people blame the lawyers for that, but realistically its not their fault.
    Exactly, the system works on paper, but practically it does not. Our system, as is, in a non capitalistic economy would be a lot closer to where it needs to be.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    California
    Posts
    20,594

    Default Re: If You Are Innocent Until Proven Guilty

    Quote Quoting Zeo
    View Post
    Exactly, the system works on paper, but practically it does not. Our system, as is, in a non capitalistic economy would be a lot closer to where it needs to be.
    What does THAT mean? In a "non-capitalistic economy"? Take a look at the authoritarian states and the Communist ones, and their so-called "justice" systems ... which system, would YOU rather have?

    As an alternative, what might YOU suggest?

    Quote Quoting Zeo
    View Post
    I hate to use the same horse and over but I kinda have to.

    Does only having ONE processing facility for HWP drug tests, forcing prosecutors to charge cases with a 0.000 BAC for said test,and hold them for several months till those results come back clean, and allowing extension after extension for said tests(requiring a visit to court weekly incsome cases), then after they come back negative dropping the case because the entire ordeal was keystoned on a piece of evidence that is at best questionable even if comes back favorable to the prosecution.
    I do not know the process in your state, but, if I may state how it tends to go in mine.

    A Blood test processed by DOJ with a .000 BAC on a DUI would automatically be forwarded to toxicology for drug analysis. If the drug test comes back clear, the DA can then ask that the test be conducted for additional substances beyond the standard panels. In all, the process beyond the BAC can take 3 to 9 months in many cases. In such a case, the charges would remain until such time as the test results came back and the prosecutor made a decision to continue on or to drop the matter.

    ( A positive urine test would not prove you were intoxicated AT THE TIME, only that you have taken any drug in the last 24 hours to One MONTH that set off detection for a controlled substance.)
    That depends on the substance. But, urine has fallen out of favor as an evidentiary test for a number of reasons. Probation and parole offices tend to use these because they are cheaper than blood and can provide a quick presumptive result which works for their purposes.

    And the entire time this is going on, threatening jail time and what not, sound like the system that is designed to be impartial and assume innocence? That so clearly favors the Prosecution economically to the point that it IS the deciding factor for a LOT of people.
    The process is not and never has been quick. I can't tell you the number of cases I have to attend that are two or more years old, and not usually because the prosecution is causing the delays. In many cases, the defense draws the case out as part of its strategy.

    And quite honestly, it makes SOME sense to do that to people that are younger and have less employment history, and recent school records that indicate an issue with drugs or absences. Doing that to people that are professionals,have a job(that you now lost them), have been driving for decades, and never had a drug related offense, with no obvious evidence (such as paraphernalia) to me is Definitely a SYSTEMATIC intimidation tactic(and a waste of tax payer money to boot I might add), and one I did NOT appreciate and do want to end, NOW.
    You will have to contact your state legislators.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    19,901

    Default Re: If You Are Innocent Until Proven Guilty

    You won't find that phrase or principal spelled out in the Constitution. There are some things that lean that way in the fifth and sixth amendment. By the way, the better term is you are PRESUMED innocent until proven guilty. There's no constitutional principle that clearing your name be EASY, just requirements for due process, guards against self-incrimination, jury trial, grand juries, speedy trial,etc...

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    8,006

    Default Re: If You Are Innocent Until Proven Guilty

    Quote Quoting llworking
    View Post
    \Its just become too expensive. Lots of people blame the lawyers for that, but realistically its not their fault.
    It is at least partially the lawyers' fault for charging exorbitant fees and not properly managing cases such that things drag on and on.

    The system is working as it is intended but like all systems has issues. The state has to prove you are legally guilty, until then you are legally innocent. That is 100% correct. That innocent people choose to plead guilty rather than fight is on them, not really the system. They are choosing to say, "The state is right, I am guilty." The only time I would say it's the systems fault is if you have an overzealous prosecutor either throwing the kitchen sink at someone to get a plea (only if the person is actually innocent) or continues pushing a case that is either tenuous at best or outright false.

  8. #8

    Default Re: If You Are Innocent Until Proven Guilty

    Quote Quoting free9man
    View Post
    They are choosing to say, "The state is right, I am guilty." The only time I would say it's the systems fault is if you have an overzealous prosecutor either throwing the kitchen sink at someone to get a plea (only if the person is actually innocent) or continues pushing a case that is either tenuous at best or outright false.
    I hate to use the same horse and over but I kinda have to.

    Does only having ONE processing facility for HWP drug tests, forcing prosecutors to charge cases with a 0.000 BAC for said test,and hold them for several months till those results come back clean, and allowing extension after extension for said tests(requiring a visit to court weekly incsome cases), then after they come back negative dropping the case because the entire ordeal was keystoned on a piece of evidence that is at best questionable even if comes back favorable to the prosecution. ( A positive urine test would not prove you were intoxicated AT THE TIME, only that you have taken any drug in the last 24 hours to One MONTH that set off detection for a controlled substance.) And the entire time this is going on, threatening jail time and what not, sound like the system that is designed to be impartial and assume innocence? That so clearly favors the Prosecution economically to the point that it IS the deciding factor for a LOT of people.

    And quite honestly, it makes SOME sense to do that to people that are younger and have less employment history, and recent school records that indicate an issue with drugs or absences. Doing that to people that are professionals,have a job(that you now lost them), have been driving for decades, and never had a drug related offense, with no obvious evidence (such as paraphernalia) to me is Definitely a SYSTEMATIC intimidation tactic(and a waste of tax payer money to boot I might add), and one I did NOT appreciate and do want to end, NOW.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    8,006

    Default Re: If You Are Innocent Until Proven Guilty

    Quote Quoting Zeo
    View Post
    I hate to use the same horse and over but I kinda have to.

    Does only having ONE processing facility for HWP drug tests, forcing prosecutors to charge cases with a 0.000 BAC for said test,and hold them for several months till those results come back clean, and allowing extension after extension for said tests(requiring a visit to court weekly incsome cases), then after they come back negative dropping the case because the entire ordeal was keystoned on a piece of evidence that is at best questionable even if comes back favorable to the prosecution. ( A positive urine test would not prove you were intoxicated AT THE TIME, only that you have taken any drug in the last 24 hours to One MONTH that set off detection for a controlled substance.) And the entire time this is going on, threatening jail time and what not, sound like the system that is designed to be impartial and assume innocence? That so clearly favors the Prosecution economically to the point that it IS the deciding factor for a LOT of people.
    The prosecution is neither impartial nor do they assume innocence. That's the defense's job. The prosecution's job is to prove the person is guilty with the evidence they have or obtain. Until you have an actual court date, that scenario shouldn't cost you a thing. You just don't talk to anyone until you have to, and then only with a lawyer.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    8,238

    Default Re: If You Are Innocent Until Proven Guilty

    Let’s make it clear how the principle “innocent until proven guilty” actually works in our legal system. That is a presumption that applies at trial. The defendant starts the trial presumed innocent and the state must convince the jury or judge that the defendant is guilty. It is not a presumption that is given by cops or prosecutors. It is a principle meant to ensure a fair trial for the defendant.

    It is an odd thing, but part of the reason that criminal cases can cost as much as they do is precisely because the system has a lot of procedures and protections built into them to protect the defendant’s rights and to ensure (as much as possible) that the defendant is given proper due process.

    At least some of the recommendations you suggest for changing the system will likely never be adopted. I would oppose some of them myself, and others I think simply would not work as you think they would. For example, paying me minimum wage as a juror would not make me any more happy to be juror than what the courts in my area pay now.

    1. Sponsored Links
       

Similar Threads

  1. Trials: Guilty or Innocent
    By Rhemar in forum Criminal Procedure
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 05-31-2010, 06:43 AM
  2. Is Innocent Till Proven Guilty a Fallacy
    By empiricalskeptic in forum Banter
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 04-18-2009, 10:28 PM
  3. Retail Fraud / Shoplifting: Walmart Shoplifting - Guilty Until Proven Innocent
    By lrnanddo in forum Criminal Charges
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 02-17-2009, 07:15 AM
  4. Innocent Until Proven Guilty
    By souperdave in forum Banter
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: 03-24-2008, 05:01 PM
  5. Sex Offenses: Plea of Guilty While Innocent in Washington
    By Mistwalker423 in forum Criminal Charges
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 10-09-2007, 02:15 PM
 
 
Sponsored Links

Legal Help, Information and Resources