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  1. #21
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    Default Re: How Do I Sue My School to Repeal a Policy That Chills Civil Libertiesl

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
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    Kissing, fondling, and groping are NOT instances of "freedom of expressions," sorry.

    While the rules may sometimes be excessive, it is not a free speech issue.
    Rulings overturning laws against lap dances seem to disagree, not that I'd want to risk those getting overturned. So I won't use those.

    But what if two people want to grope each other without speaking a certain way. This rule forces them to speak or risk severe penalties, for doing something that is not illegal.

    Sexual assault involves force or knowing the other person does want it. Has the department of justice overreached when it said it is touching without explicit consent?

    Yeah, it sucks. All the more reason for guys to keep it in their pants! Actually getting to know someone before jumping into the sack with them might help ... we used to call this quaint tribal custom as "dating."
    I read that flawed argument a lot, but the fact is even someone you date can decide to falsely accuse you later. The problem is giving one human too much power over another human. If she can have you expelled whenever she wants, that is too much power. Relationships can sour years later, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

    There is no way to know what someone will do with power until after they have it.

    There are men expelled who said they never even touched their accuser. It does not matter if you keep it in your pants or not. Women can expel any man just on their word.

    Kissing, touching, and fondling are expression. The question is whether they are free expression. I'm not arguing that they are 100% free. I'm saying there is no public interest to validate using affirmative consent in every case, such as when 2 people are already making out.

    My school also has a rule against abusing the accusation process. Any reasonable person knows that is in place to chill men from using it against women. All this rule does it give women power over men.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: How Do I Sue My School to Repeal a Policy That Chills Civil Libertiesl

    Quote Quoting MikeSmith321
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    Rulings overturning laws against lap dances seem to disagree, not that I'd want to risk those getting overturned. So I won't use those.

    But what if two people want to grope each other without speaking a certain way. This rule forces them to speak or risk severe penalties, for doing something that is not illegal.
    If the other party does not complain, there would be no alleged violation to be investigated. If the other party is okay with the activity, they would ostensibly never complain in the first place.

    Sexual assault involves force or knowing the other person does want it. Has the department of justice overreached when it said it is touching without explicit consent?
    Not sure what you are getting at here. States and the feds all have their own legal definitions of these various and sordid offenses.

    I read that flawed argument a lot, but the fact is even someone you date can decide to falsely accuse you later. The problem is giving one human too much power over another human. If she can have you expelled whenever she wants, that is too much power. Relationships can sour years later, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
    A false accusation "years later" would not be an issue for the university system, but for the court system. And to be charged with a crime and successfully prosecuted, the evidence needs to be beyond a reasonable doubt. The college or university can act administratively, the courts cannot.

    There is no way to know what someone will do with power until after they have it.
    Just ask Hillary.
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  3. #23
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    Default Re: How Do I Sue My School to Repeal a Policy That Chills Civil Libertiesl

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
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    If the other party does not complain, there would be no alleged violation to be investigated. If the other party is okay with the activity, they would ostensibly never complain in the first place.
    Same with illegal rape. If the victim does not complain, it is not enforced. So, the school is enforcing the law against failure to express yourself the way they tell you to the same way that police enforce laws against illegal rape. The only difference is the schools use preponderance of evidence instead of proof beyond a reasonable doubt.


    A false accusation "years later" would not be an issue for the university system, but for the court system. And to be charged with a crime and successfully prosecuted, the evidence needs to be beyond a reasonable doubt. The college or university can act administratively, the courts cannot.
    There have been cases of schools suspending students for a kiss that happened years ago, even though the "victim" continued to date the guy after the kiss. My school says it can revoke degrees of students after they graduate, if they later find by preponderance of evidence that sex misconduct occurred during the earning of the degree. These administrators have great ongoing power over tomorrow's leaders.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: How Do I Sue My School to Repeal a Policy That Chills Civil Libertiesl

    Quote Quoting cbg
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    Tax, you should know me well enough by now to know that I wasn't accusing you of saying anything of the sort, or making the kind of generalizations you accuse me of. Maybe you missed the case I was referring to, which was widely reported; the one in which the judge stated FROM THE BENCH that although the young man in question had been found guilty of raping an unconscious woman, he was sentencing him to only 1/4 of the jail time typically given for such cases because "jail would have a severe impact on him". We are talking about a case where a couple of passersby were able to tell from several feet away that there was something wrong and who pulled him off her and where he was convicted in a court of law. That's hardly the same thing as a blanket indictment of all men who are accused whether they are found guilty or not.

    I work on a college campus. I am not accusing all men, or even most men, of having a rapist's mentality but you may rest assured that there are quite a few who do. I completely agree that the rules are ridiculous and I am not defending them - I am saying that I understand (even if I don't agree with them) why an administrator might put them out there.
    Stanford swimmer guy? He was not convicted of rape so he is legally not a rapist. He was convicted of sexual assault. The prosecutor dropped the rape charge and changed it to sexual assault. But that conviction carried a 14 year sentence, the prosecutor wanted six and the judge gave him six months (which is really going to be 3) because of what you stated.

    Quote Quoting MikeSmith321
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    Affirmative consent and preponderance of evidence are two separate dimensions. As a guy, I'm OK with preponderance of evidence as long as the penalty is just suspension or expulsion and not defamation. What bothers me is the affirmative consent rule, which I think sets a dangerous precedent against freedom of expression. If lightning strikes, it strikes, but they should not use that threat as a means to scare me into waving my right to freedom of expression.

    I'm OK with affirmative consent before a first touch, while drinking, or before penetration. I think it is ridiculous for sober people to have to ask permission between kisses with someone who already consented to the first kiss, when that person shows no signs of unwelcomeness, and the instigators conduct is not forceful in any way.

    I say if a guy has sex with a woman, and she complains in 24 hours that he scared her into submission, and the stories are equally believable, then that should be enough for some kind of penalty, though not prison. Expulsion or suspension. What really bothers me is they are expelling guys for recent accusations about stuff that happened months or years ago. That means once a guy has sex with a woman, he better not every say anything that upsets her in the future, or she can say the sex was not consensual then, thus controlling his free speech since proof is not needed.


    Also, I don't need to win the case. I just need to threaten to proceed. It will cost them money or time to fight it. I might be able to settle out of court with them compromising on their policy.

    So, you don't think the federal government is in on this? The department of justice defines sexual assault as touching someone without their explicit consent, which anyone who can read knows means you must ask in advance of each touch. I suspect it is more than just administrators. I think the department of education administrators are pressuring schools. I could be wrong, though. I'd like to sue them directly, but I don't know how to get standing for that. A school would have to.
    I think you need to research sexual assault and rape victims. Many, many victims never report or do not report until days, months or years later. Also realize that those are not gender specific crimes or perpetrators. Anyone can be raped or sexually assaulted and anyone can be a rapist.

    Honestly I cannot see how you think you have a case. It is not the school's fault your grades dropped. YOU let them drop. If you are so traumatized by this policy go see the college counselor. Most, if not all, colleges have therapists or counselors.

    I refer you to this: https://youtu.be/LQCU36pkH7c

    I believe that sums up everything you have said on this thread.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: How Do I Sue My School to Repeal a Policy That Chills Civil Libertiesl

    Quote Quoting MikeSmith321
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    Same with illegal rape. If the victim does not complain, it is not enforced. So, the school is enforcing the law against failure to express yourself the way they tell you to the same way that police enforce laws against illegal rape. The only difference is the schools use preponderance of evidence instead of proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
    As opposed to legal rape? Rape, by definition, is illegal.


    There have been cases of schools suspending students for a kiss that happened years ago, even though the "victim" continued to date the guy after the kiss. My school says it can revoke degrees of students after they graduate, if they later find by preponderance of evidence that sex misconduct occurred during the earning of the degree. These administrators have great ongoing power over tomorrow's leaders.
    I'm interested in those cases - got cites?

    (No folks, seriously - it's for my own research for a home-grown project)

  6. #26
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    Default Re: How Do I Sue My School to Repeal a Policy That Chills Civil Libertiesl

    Quote Quoting MikeSmith321
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    I meant I would not initiate the suit with the idea that I don't have a case. I'd make sure I had a case before going in. But if they also have a case, and it looks like a 50-50 toss up how the court would rule, I think they might decide to settle.

    In order for them to make me pay their fees, doesn't the court have to rule that my case was obviously flawed and that I filed when I should have known it was not valid? I thought the awarding of attorney fees was not common.

    And how are they not violating my free speech? They are saying that I must speak a certain way at a certain time, or else be labelled a rapist if my partner ever in the future develops a grudge against me and decides to reference one of the times I did not specifically ask. I am not allowed to express myself how I want in a peaceful way by touching my partner without first getting explicit permission for every touch, when she has already shown interest in previous acts.

    I don't think they can claim campus safety as a justification for impeding free speech here. All rapists, including the Stanford rapist, will just claim they got consent. And all false accusers will deny that he did even if he did. It is back to he said she said. The only effect of this rule is it forces everyone else to give up their freedom of expression.

    If they want to make a case for campus safety, they can argue that for the preponderance standard, but not for the yes means yes standard. As for the preponderance standard, they really need to count the amount of time passed as evidence tipping the scales. If she complains within 24 hours, the burden of preponderance could shift to him. If she waits over 72 hours, she should have some proving to do. The mere fact she waited should count for a lot.

    As for how many rapists there are, even if it is just 1% of men, if 1% of women complain of rape each year, it is likely at least half of the accusations are true. Same if only 1% of women falsely accuse; if only 1% report rape each year, half could be false. We are measuring small quantities that are not representative of the bell curve, and often are impossible to prove one way or the other. That is why I say we hedge our bets. If she reports it soon, and her story sounds believable, and he can't prove otherwise, then suspend or expel, without saying he was found guilty. Just say it is policy. That should discourage rapists, yet be survivable by the innocent, as long as other colleges can't discriminate against them without convincing evidence or multiple independent accusations.
    As already stated to you - the only way you would have to worry about this is if you are reckless with who you choose as partners. I guarantee you are the only person at the college who wrings his hands about this policy.

    Go to a different college if this policy bothers you so much. I cannot even continue to comment on your posts as they are ridiculous and insane.

    Quote Quoting MikeSmith321
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    Same with illegal rape. If the victim does not complain, it is not enforced. So, the school is enforcing the law against failure to express yourself the way they tell you to the same way that police enforce laws against illegal rape. The only difference is the schools use preponderance of evidence instead of proof beyond a reasonable doubt.




    There have been cases of schools suspending students for a kiss that happened years ago, even though the "victim" continued to date the guy after the kiss. My school says it can revoke degrees of students after they graduate, if they later find by preponderance of evidence that sex misconduct occurred during the earning of the degree. These administrators have great ongoing power over tomorrow's leaders.
    What the hell is "illegal rape?" Rape is illegal so what would be legal rape? You need to just stop before you get yourself in a hole and cannot climb out. What cases are you talking about? Sources? Can you cite these cases?

  7. #27
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    Default Re: How Do I Sue My School to Repeal a Policy That Chills Civil Libertiesl

    What the hell is "illegal rape?" Rape is illegal so what would be legal rape?
    I'm not in a hole. The problem is when people don't read what I wrote correctly. Please read below:

    Quote Quoting Dogmatique
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    As opposed to legal rape? Rape, by definition, is illegal.
    As opposed to the definition these colleges are using. Sexual contact without asking explicitly for permission first before every little step.

    Of course they found him responsible. It is much cheaper to side with her than to face a million dollar law suit or loss of federal funding if they don't appease her. They need convincing evidence of his innocence to know their butts are covered in a lawsuit.

    Given how guaranteed it is that women win, I think a 24 hour rule is very reasonable. The only excuse to wait longer is if you are afraid you won't be believed, which no longer is the case.

    Go to a different college if this policy bothers you so much.
    $20,000 per year of out of state tuition at other colleges. Plus, almost every college has this rule. They all are caving in under the threat of losing their federal funding if they ever don't appease an accuser.

    As already stated to you - the only way you would have to worry about this is if you are reckless with who you choose as partners.
    Tell that to rape victims. If you think people judge people, tell rape victims to judge guys better. You are victim blaming. How can a guy tell, especially what she will be like a year later?

    I guarantee you are the only person at the college who wrings his hands about this policy.
    Most men are afraid of being branded "rape apologists", a nasty name the left came up with to silence their opposition. Men are afraid everywhere, and too afraid to speak up. That is why I am.

    I think you need to research sexual assault and rape victims. Many, many victims never report or do not report until days, months or years later.
    Alleged victims.

    Given the super low standard of evidence, basically automatic conviction unless he can prove his innocence, the ability to go retroactive months or years means she is boss over him. He better not ever disobey or upset her or she can have him expelled just on her word. Do you not see something bad about that?


    Also realize that those are not gender specific crimes or perpetrators. Anyone can be raped or sexually assaulted and anyone can be a rapist.
    99% of those found responsible are men. My school even has a rule that abusing the conduct tribunal process is grounds for punishment, decided at the preponderance level. I'm sure that rule is there to scare men from filing accusations against women.


    They have taken the most stigmatized, hard to prove crime, broadened its definition so wide that everyone must break it, and are using a low standard of evidence so they can take out whoever they want. This is how dictators get power, putting everyone in fear.

    Quote Quoting Dogmatique
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    I'm interested in those cases - got cites?
    I'll try and dig them up again. I read them over the last year or 2, so not all are surfacing in google searches the way I found them. Check back and I'll have some links.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: How Do I Sue My School to Repeal a Policy That Chills Civil Libertiesl

    Quote Quoting qwaspolk69
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    Stanford swimmer guy? He was not convicted of rape so he is legally not a rapist. He was convicted of sexual assault. The prosecutor dropped the rape charge and changed it to sexual assault. But that conviction carried a 14 year sentence, the prosecutor wanted six and the judge gave him six months (which is really going to be 3) because of what you stated.
    Well, it appears he was convicted of assault to commit rape - a violation of PC 220. That means he WILL have to register as a violent sex offender the same as someone convicted of "rape" per PC 261.

    Honestly I cannot see how you think you have a case. It is not the school's fault your grades dropped. YOU let them drop. If you are so traumatized by this policy go see the college counselor. Most, if not all, colleges have therapists or counselors.
    College is not - or SHOULD not - be about sex. It is about education. If the OP wants to party and hook up, perhaps he ought to re-think his career options.

    Quote Quoting MikeSmith321
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    As opposed to the definition these colleges are using. Sexual contact without asking explicitly for permission first before every little step.
    A college can establish rules, but they do not have the impact of law. You have a choice if you do not like the rules: follow them, or, leave. Yeah, it might suck and it might not be easy, but if you run afoul of the rules you could find yourself punished by them.

    Given how guaranteed it is that women win, I think a 24 hour rule is very reasonable. The only excuse to wait longer is if you are afraid you won't be believed, which no longer is the case.
    This is NOT true at all! If you study the psychology of rape for more than 5 minutes, you will understand that many victims will not report the crime for some time. Why? Well, the short version includes a discussion of shame, fear, embarrassment, ad nauseum. I have known victims to wait weeks and months before reporting, and others do not report at all until something happens that compels them to come forward. It's rarely some effort to mess with a guy years later, but finally coming to terms with what happened to them and coming forward.

    Understand that a rape victim has to suffer through physical exams, numerous interviews by officers, investigators, prosecutors, defense investigators, and on the stand. They have to repeat their embarrassing and traumatic tale repeatedly. This thought, by itself, discourages many victims from coming forward.

    And, the rate of successful prosecutions for rape claims is very low. Even good cases can be difficult to prove, and this is a further deterrent to coming forward.
    **********
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    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkM-gDcmJeM

  9. #29
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    Default Re: How Do I Sue My School to Repeal a Policy That Chills Civil Libertiesl

    Quote Quoting MikeSmith321
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    I'm not in a hole. The problem is when people don't read what I wrote correctly. Please read below:


    As opposed to the definition these colleges are using. Sexual contact without asking explicitly for permission first before every little step.

    Of course they found him responsible. It is much cheaper to side with her than to face a million dollar law suit or loss of federal funding if they don't appease her. They need convincing evidence of his innocence to know their butts are covered in a lawsuit.

    Given how guaranteed it is that women win, I think a 24 hour rule is very reasonable. The only excuse to wait longer is if you are afraid you won't be believed, which no longer is the case.


    $20,000 per year of out of state tuition at other colleges. Plus, almost every college has this rule. They all are caving in under the threat of losing their federal funding if they ever don't appease an accuser.


    Tell that to rape victims. If you think people judge people, tell rape victims to judge guys better. You are victim blaming. How can a guy tell, especially what she will be like a year later?


    Most men are afraid of being branded "rape apologists", a nasty name the left came up with to silence their opposition. Men are afraid everywhere, and too afraid to speak up. That is why I am.


    Alleged victims.

    Given the super low standard of evidence, basically automatic conviction unless he can prove his innocence, the ability to go retroactive months or years means she is boss over him. He better not ever disobey or upset her or she can have him expelled just on her word. Do you not see something bad about that?




    99% of those found responsible are men. My school even has a rule that abusing the conduct tribunal process is grounds for punishment, decided at the preponderance level. I'm sure that rule is there to scare men from filing accusations against women.


    They have taken the most stigmatized, hard to prove crime, broadened its definition so wide that everyone must break it, and are using a low standard of evidence so they can take out whoever they want. This is how dictators get power, putting everyone in fear.



    I'll try and dig them up again. I read them over the last year or 2, so not all are surfacing in google searches the way I found them. Check back and I'll have some links.
    Everything in your post is wrong. Completely wrong.

    Here is your legal advice that everyone has already given you: You have no hope in winning a case against the college or the federal government. So just stop. How about if you focused more time on your classes in college and less on why you cannot get women to have sex with you, you might not be failing.

    I am not wasting my time to provide you the ACTUAL statistics on rape and sexual assault. But your "99%" is waaaay off base.

    This quote: "Tell that to rape victims. If you think people judge people, tell rape victims to judge guys better. You are victim blaming. How can a guy tell, especially what she will be like a year later?"

    Completely contradicts this quote: "Given how guaranteed it is that women win, I think a 24 hour rule is very reasonable. The only excuse to wait longer is if you are afraid you won't be believed, which no longer is the case." You just victim blamed. In all of that.

    As stated you have no clue about the psychological impacts of rape or sexual assault on a victim of ANY gender. Rape is not gender specific. How many times must that be said to society? When you sit there and have to help a rape or assault victim and then tell them that their case was unfounded due to lack of evidence or for any number of reasons, and see the crushing defeat in their eyes, then you can come back and say something about how they react.

    This is what I think you are so upset about this for: You tried to come on to or have sex with some female, she rejected you and maybe she even reported you and now you want to find a way out of it. Or you wonder why women constantly turn you down for dates or sex. ALL of your posts are the reason why no woman wants you. Deal with it.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: How Do I Sue My School to Repeal a Policy That Chills Civil Libertiesl

    Quote Quoting MikeSmith321
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    As opposed to the definition these colleges are using. Sexual contact without asking explicitly for permission first before every little step.
    Show me where a college has differentiated between "legal rape" and "illegal rape". I'll wait.



    Given how guaranteed it is that women win, I think a 24 hour rule is very reasonable. The only excuse to wait longer is if you are afraid you won't be believed, which no longer is the case.
    Please show us something - anything, Mikey - to support your claim here. (The reality is that it's all too often the exact opposite - rape and sexual assault cases are typically far more difficult to "win" than people realize).



    Given the super low standard of evidence, basically automatic conviction unless he can prove his innocence, the ability to go retroactive months or years means she is boss over him.
    You haven't actually looked into the real facts behind rape at all, have you?


    I'll try and dig them up again. I read them over the last year or 2, so not all are surfacing in google searches the way I found them. Check back and I'll have some links.
    Oh, if they're real, they'll be there. Find the, please.

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