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  1. #11
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    Default Re: How Do I Sue My School to Repeal a Policy That Chills Civil Libertiesl

    Tax, you should know me well enough by now to know that I wasn't accusing you of saying anything of the sort, or making the kind of generalizations you accuse me of. Maybe you missed the case I was referring to, which was widely reported; the one in which the judge stated FROM THE BENCH that although the young man in question had been found guilty of raping an unconscious woman, he was sentencing him to only 1/4 of the jail time typically given for such cases because "jail would have a severe impact on him". We are talking about a case where a couple of passersby were able to tell from several feet away that there was something wrong and who pulled him off her and where he was convicted in a court of law. That's hardly the same thing as a blanket indictment of all men who are accused whether they are found guilty or not.

    I work on a college campus. I am not accusing all men, or even most men, of having a rapist's mentality but you may rest assured that there are quite a few who do. I completely agree that the rules are ridiculous and I am not defending them - I am saying that I understand (even if I don't agree with them) why an administrator might put them out there.

  2. #12
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    Default Re: How Do I Sue My School to Repeal a Policy That Chills Civil Libertiesl

    Affirmative consent and preponderance of evidence are two separate dimensions. As a guy, I'm OK with preponderance of evidence as long as the penalty is just suspension or expulsion and not defamation. What bothers me is the affirmative consent rule, which I think sets a dangerous precedent against freedom of expression. If lightning strikes, it strikes, but they should not use that threat as a means to scare me into waving my right to freedom of expression.

    I'm OK with affirmative consent before a first touch, while drinking, or before penetration. I think it is ridiculous for sober people to have to ask permission between kisses with someone who already consented to the first kiss, when that person shows no signs of unwelcomeness, and the instigators conduct is not forceful in any way.

    I say if a guy has sex with a woman, and she complains in 24 hours that he scared her into submission, and the stories are equally believable, then that should be enough for some kind of penalty, though not prison. Expulsion or suspension. What really bothers me is they are expelling guys for recent accusations about stuff that happened months or years ago. That means once a guy has sex with a woman, he better not every say anything that upsets her in the future, or she can say the sex was not consensual then, thus controlling his free speech since proof is not needed.


    Also, I don't need to win the case. I just need to threaten to proceed. It will cost them money or time to fight it. I might be able to settle out of court with them compromising on their policy.

    So, you don't think the federal government is in on this? The department of justice defines sexual assault as touching someone without their explicit consent, which anyone who can read knows means you must ask in advance of each touch. I suspect it is more than just administrators. I think the department of education administrators are pressuring schools. I could be wrong, though. I'd like to sue them directly, but I don't know how to get standing for that. A school would have to.

  3. #13
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    Default Re: How Do I Sue My School to Repeal a Policy That Chills Civil Libertiesl

    Quote Quoting cbg
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    Maybe you missed the case I was referring to, which was widely reported; the one in which the judge stated FROM THE BENCH that although the young man in question had been found guilty of raping an unconscious woman, he was sentencing him to only 1/4 of the jail time typically given for such cases because "jail would have a severe impact on him".
    I did not see the reporting on that case. There are from time to time judges who sentence way below or way above the norm for a particular offense. But the fact that it happened in a particular isolated case does not mean that rapists as a group are getting slaps on the wrist. I think you know that. I can understand not liking the outcome of that particular case, but to somehow suggest that kind of case rationalizes stupid rules, especially stupid rules issues by supposedly smart people, boggles my mind.

    Quote Quoting cbg
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    I work on a college campus. I am not accusing all men, or even most men, of having a rapist's mentality but you may rest assured that there are quite a few who do.
    (bolding added.) You are telling me that you don’t believe the generalization in one breath but in another you make the same generalization: that a lot of men have a rapist mentality. I believe that assertion to be flat out wrong. I think it’s unfortunate that you believe that to be true. Certainly there are some men who have that mind set, but “quite a few”? I think not.

    Quote Quoting cbg
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    I completely agree that the rules are ridiculous and I am not defending them - I am saying that I understand (even if I don't agree with them) why an administrator might put them out there.
    I guess that’s one of the key differences here; I can’t understand it. I completely understand why college administrators would want to reduce campus rape but putting out ridiculous rules like this as though that will solve the problem is not the way smart people would tackle the matter. Perhaps I am giving college administrators credit for being smarter than they really are.

  4. #14
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    Default Re: How Do I Sue My School to Repeal a Policy That Chills Civil Libertiesl

    Quote Quoting MikeSmith321
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    Also, I don't need to win the case. I just need to threaten to proceed. It will cost them money or time to fight it. I might be able to settle out of court with them compromising on their policy.
    I strongly urge you to rethink this idea. Once they've done dragging you back and forth to court, repeatedly, knowing fine well that you have no case to begin with, you're going to get stuck with their legal fees.

    Please don't do this to yourself.

  5. #15
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    Default Re: How Do I Sue My School to Repeal a Policy That Chills Civil Libertiesl

    Quote Quoting MikeSmith321
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    I could be wrong, though. I'd like to sue them directly, but I don't know how to get standing for that. A school would have to.
    Even if the Education Department is pressuring the schools to do it, it would not give you standing to sue the federal government. The schools are not obligated in any way to bow to whatever pressure the feds are asserting. If there was a free speech violation here (and again I’m not seeing it) you’d need to sue the entity that is imposing the rule: your school.

  6. #16
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    Default Re: How Do I Sue My School to Repeal a Policy That Chills Civil Libertiesl

    And I'm sorry that you can't see that there are men with a rapist mentality. Again, I am not saying all or most - but they exist. Perhaps I should send you some of security warnings that are distributed on campus? Which are sent out in response to specific, actually-happened attacks? Or perhaps they don't happen where you are.

    I'm sorry you can't see that I am neither rationalizing nor defending such rules - only that from an administrative standpoint, I can understand what they are trying to do. Yes, as Doggie said, the pendulum has swung much too far - but that's often necessary in order to get to a more reasonable position.

    Maybe we should just agree to disagree.

  7. #17
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    Default Re: How Do I Sue My School to Repeal a Policy That Chills Civil Libertiesl

    Quote Quoting Dogmatique
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    I strongly urge you to rethink this idea. Once they've done dragging you back and forth to court, repeatedly, knowing fine well that you have no case to begin with, you're going to get stuck with their legal fees.

    Please don't do this to yourself.
    I meant I would not initiate the suit with the idea that I don't have a case. I'd make sure I had a case before going in. But if they also have a case, and it looks like a 50-50 toss up how the court would rule, I think they might decide to settle.

    In order for them to make me pay their fees, doesn't the court have to rule that my case was obviously flawed and that I filed when I should have known it was not valid? I thought the awarding of attorney fees was not common.

    And how are they not violating my free speech? They are saying that I must speak a certain way at a certain time, or else be labelled a rapist if my partner ever in the future develops a grudge against me and decides to reference one of the times I did not specifically ask. I am not allowed to express myself how I want in a peaceful way by touching my partner without first getting explicit permission for every touch, when she has already shown interest in previous acts.

    I don't think they can claim campus safety as a justification for impeding free speech here. All rapists, including the Stanford rapist, will just claim they got consent. And all false accusers will deny that he did even if he did. It is back to he said she said. The only effect of this rule is it forces everyone else to give up their freedom of expression.

    If they want to make a case for campus safety, they can argue that for the preponderance standard, but not for the yes means yes standard. As for the preponderance standard, they really need to count the amount of time passed as evidence tipping the scales. If she complains within 24 hours, the burden of preponderance could shift to him. If she waits over 72 hours, she should have some proving to do. The mere fact she waited should count for a lot.

    As for how many rapists there are, even if it is just 1% of men, if 1% of women complain of rape each year, it is likely at least half of the accusations are true. Same if only 1% of women falsely accuse; if only 1% report rape each year, half could be false. We are measuring small quantities that are not representative of the bell curve, and often are impossible to prove one way or the other. That is why I say we hedge our bets. If she reports it soon, and her story sounds believable, and he can't prove otherwise, then suspend or expel, without saying he was found guilty. Just say it is policy. That should discourage rapists, yet be survivable by the innocent, as long as other colleges can't discriminate against them without convincing evidence or multiple independent accusations.

  8. #18
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    Default Re: How Do I Sue My School to Repeal a Policy That Chills Civil Libertiesl

    Quote Quoting cbg
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    And I'm sorry that you can't see that there are men with a rapist mentality. Again, I am not saying all or most - but they exist. Perhaps I should send you some of security warnings that are distributed on campus? Which are sent out in response to specific, actually-happened attacks? Or perhaps they don't happen where you are.
    I specifically said that some men have that mentality. But I disagree with your assertion that it is “quite a few.” How many men are there that attend and work at your university? And how many of those alerts do you get in a year? What percentage does that come out to be? A couple percent, if that? That’s a far cry from being “quite a few” unless your meaning of that term is very much different from what I think the usual meaning of it is.

    Quote Quoting cbg
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    Maybe we should just agree to disagree.
    We may have to do that, since I think you believe that far more men have a rapist mentality than is truly the case, and neither of us is likely to convince the other to change their mind on this.

  9. #19
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    Default Re: How Do I Sue My School to Repeal a Policy That Chills Civil Libertiesl

    Quote Quoting MikeSmith321
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    I meant I would not initiate the suit with the idea that I don't have a case. I'd make sure I had a case before going in. But if they also have a case, and it looks like a 50-50 toss up how the court would rule, I think they might decide to settle.

    In order for them to make me pay their fees, doesn't the court have to rule that my case was obviously flawed and that I filed when I should have known it was not valid? I thought the awarding of attorney fees was not common.

    And how are they not violating my free speech? They are saying that I must speak a certain way at a certain time, or else be labelled a rapist if my partner ever in the future develops a grudge against me and decides to reference one of the times I did not specifically ask. I am not allowed to express myself how I want in a peaceful way by touching my partner without first getting explicit permission for every touch, when she has already shown interest in previous acts.

    I don't think they can claim campus safety as a justification for impeding free speech here. All rapists, including the Stanford rapist, will just claim they got consent. And all false accusers will deny that he did even if he did. It is back to he said she said. The only effect of this rule is it forces everyone else to give up their freedom of expression.

    If they want to make a case for campus safety, they can argue that for the preponderance standard, but not for the yes means yes standard. As for the preponderance standard, they really need to count the amount of time passed as evidence tipping the scales. If she complains within 24 hours, the burden of preponderance could shift to him. If she waits over 72 hours, she should have some proving to do. The mere fact she waited should count for a lot.

    As for how many rapists there are, even if it is just 1% of men, if 1% of women complain of rape each year, it is likely at least half of the accusations are true. Same if only 1% of women falsely accuse; if only 1% report rape each year, half could be false. We are measuring small quantities that are not representative of the bell curve, and often are impossible to prove one way or the other. That is why I say we hedge our bets. If she reports it soon, and her story sounds believable, and he can't prove otherwise, then suspend or expel, without saying he was found guilty. Just say it is policy. That should discourage rapists, yet be survivable by the innocent, as long as other colleges can't discriminate against them without convincing evidence or multiple independent accusations.
    Wow.

    You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, do you?

  10. #20
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    Default Re: How Do I Sue My School to Repeal a Policy That Chills Civil Libertiesl

    Quote Quoting MikeSmith321
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    Affirmative consent and preponderance of evidence are two separate dimensions. As a guy, I'm OK with preponderance of evidence as long as the penalty is just suspension or expulsion and not defamation. What bothers me is the affirmative consent rule, which I think sets a dangerous precedent against freedom of expression. If lightning strikes, it strikes, but they should not use that threat as a means to scare me into waving my right to freedom of expression.
    Kissing, fondling, and groping are NOT instances of "freedom of expressions," sorry.

    While the rules may sometimes be excessive, it is not a free speech issue.

    I say if a guy has sex with a woman, and she complains in 24 hours that he scared her into submission, and the stories are equally believable, then that should be enough for some kind of penalty, though not prison. Expulsion or suspension. What really bothers me is they are expelling guys for recent accusations about stuff that happened months or years ago. That means once a guy has sex with a woman, he better not every say anything that upsets her in the future, or she can say the sex was not consensual then, thus controlling his free speech since proof is not needed.
    Yeah, it sucks. All the more reason for guys to keep it in their pants! Actually getting to know someone before jumping into the sack with them might help ... we used to call this quaint tribal custom as "dating."

    Also, I don't need to win the case. I just need to threaten to proceed. It will cost them money or time to fight it. I might be able to settle out of court with them compromising on their policy.
    Oh, YOU will not be able to cow the university at all! If they have a complaining "victim," they will stand by their policies because that is what tends to keep them safe. You do not have the resources the school has, and they have a heck of a motivation to be seen as combating sexual predation.

    Quote Quoting cbg
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    And I'm sorry that you can't see that there are men with a rapist mentality. Again, I am not saying all or most - but they exist. Perhaps I should send you some of security warnings that are distributed on campus? Which are sent out in response to specific, actually-happened attacks? Or perhaps they don't happen where you are.
    We get those at the University where I now work. But, the perpetrators are rarely ever fellow students, and the incidents generally do not involve stranger assaults. Most often the warnings sound much worse than the reality of the underlying incident was.
    **********
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