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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
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    38,867

    Default Re: Ticketed for Following Too Closely Without Hitting Another Vehicle

    Lifted?
    large tires?

    give it up. Alterations whether legal or not, have a huge effect on the performance of your vehicle. Large tires negatively effect the performance of your brakes which could lead to the lock up issue. The raised truck and oversized tires added to the instability of the vehicle which could negatively impact the function of the brakes and definitely negatively impacts the handling performance of the truck.

    I've got no problem with the following too closely ticket anymore. Given the alterations and the series of events, to me it appears the result of a person that could not handle their vehicle in the situation which was exacerbated by the alterations they performed on their own vehicle.

    Following too closely doesn't mean you hit another vehicle. It means you couldn't safely stop within the distance you allowed yourself to react to a situation that could present itself in front of you.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    7,056

    Default Re: Ticketed for Following Too Closely Without Hitting Another Vehicle

    The accident is entirely the fault of the driver. And the ticket is justified.

    There was no malfunction of the brakes. It takes enormous hydraulic presser to lock up a brake system and there is no mechanical malfunction that could cause a brake on a wheel to lock. It might cause significant drag and perhaps loose of control, but not a lock-up.

    What I think is likely is that OP slammed on his brakes, locked all four wheels, and when the truck began to slide sidewise he turned his wheel, released his brake with a turned steering wheel that caused the truck to roll from the sudden change in direction.

    Back in the day, before ABS and systems like stabilitrak, drivers knew that if you locked your wheels, you were out of control.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    38,867

    Default Re: Ticketed for Following Too Closely Without Hitting Another Vehicle

    There were lawsuits dealing with this issue decades ago. I can't find the one I'm looking for but it resulted in a re-engineering of the rear brakes on that make of truck to include a pressure regulation system that would decrease the pressure available to the rear wheels based on the relative position between the rear axle and the frame. Sort of a purely mechanical ABS. The higher the bed, the less pressure available. It is a known performance aspect of pick up trucks that an unloaded truck is more susceptible to rear wheel lock up and the handling characteristics are adversely affected by the condition.

    I've driven a pick up truck myself as a daily drive for 20 years. I am quite familiar with the unique aspects of driving a pickup truck. If a truck does not have (at least) rear abs, it can be susceptible to rear wheel lock up with no warning even when it is not being driven overly aggressively.


    there are malfunctions of brakes that could lead to rear wheel lockup, even without the dragging condition you asserted. I could list several without a problem but presuming the brakes were repaired properly none should be an issue.


    Even with those issues, I see this as nothing more than this being a result of a poor driver that over reacted to a situation which resulted in the loss of control and the accident. In other words; he followed too closely to be able to stop within the distance he allowed given the road conditions and the vehicle involved.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    7,056

    Default Re: Ticketed for Following Too Closely Without Hitting Another Vehicle

    Anyone who has driven their vehicle with the parking brake/emergency brake on (which is mechanical) can attest to the fact that mechanical pressure on the braking system will not lock up the rear wheels. There is no mechanical cause of locked up wheels that I am aware of despite the allegations in lawsuits.

    Any hydraulic pressure to the system is initiated by the driver using the brake peddle.

    If ABS or some stability system takes over by computer is another matter but that is not the case here. But brakes don't just lock-up.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    38,867

    Default Re: Ticketed for Following Too Closely Without Hitting Another Vehicle

    I could write pages on conditions that would cause rear wheels to lock with little pressure involved.

    The use of a parking brake can result in rear wheel lock up. Heck, it's a common practice among kids to use the parking brake to initiate a rear wheel slide for th fun of it (donuts is a parking lot) It is usually more difficult to cause a lock up using a parking brake though since it takes much more effort to apply pressures anywhere close to what the hydraulic system can but in many many situations, the mechanical parking brake does not activate the system in the same manner as the hydraulic system does which results in the non-hydraulic activation being a less effective system.

    None the less, in many vehicles in many situations the parking brake can cause a rear wheel lock condition.

    While you state the obvious, hydraulic pressure is initiated by the driver, I'm not understanding your point. While true, there are myriad factors that can affect the function of the brakes even with equal pressures involved. I have repaired vehicles where the slightest hydraulic activation of brakes resulted in rear wheel lock up. I have repaired vehicles where the Hulk himself could not cause the wheels to lock using the hydraulic brakes. There are so many variables involved it is never as simple as; driver error.

    in the situation at hand I suspect it is a combination of factors that led to the result. Over size tires cause a lot of braking issue. Simply due to the larger diameter the effectiveness of the brakes is reduced. The larger tires results in a greater amount of torque being applied to the brake system. That means the brakes don't work as effectively as with a smaller tire which means the driver must apply more pressure to the brakes to cause the same net braking effect.

    Then as the rear of the vehicle "unloads" due to it rising, there comes a point where the friction available between the tires and the road is reduced. There is a magical point where the braking action exceeds the friction available and viola we have immediate wheel lock. It is very difficult to determine when it will happen as there are so many variables involved. It generally comes as a surprise to the driver. The more experience in such situations a driver has, the more likely they will be able to guess when it will happen and act accordingly.

    So, in the situation at hand, due to over size tires the driver must apply greater force. As long as that greater force can be utilized all is well. As soon as the scales tip to result in inadequate friction between the road and the tires, that force is then way to much needed and that excess force results in a very fast change of braking force required such that a driver cannot typically react quickly enough to compensate. Even adjusting for the conditions as the dynamics change to require a much lesser force applied to the brakes is often beyond the average driver to compensate for. Until the vehicle slows enough to defeat the issues creating the situation at hand, there will be a modulation of the application of the brakes to deal with the possible lock up conditions followed immediately by the need to apply adequate pressure to overcome the over sized wheel induced torque increase and slowing the vehicle.

    End result; loss of effective control of the vehicle.

    Add that to attempting to avoid an obstacle and we have the op's situation.


    it still boils down to driver error which means the ticket is justified.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    15

    Default Re: Ticketed for Following Too Closely Without Hitting Another Vehicle

    When I said lifted with larger tires I should have been more specific. I have just stronger springs in the back for hauling trailers (less than 2" of lift) and 31" tires so its not like I have a monster truck. I also had just had ceramic brakes put on and had the rear drum brakes replaced and had them converted to disc brakes. Maybe that's what caused it.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Snohomish, WA
    Posts
    1,588

    Default Re: Ticketed for Following Too Closely Without Hitting Another Vehicle

    Who did the conversion? Did they use a factory proportioning valve made for factory rear discs? Was it factory or aftermarket hardware for the rest of the conversion?

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    15

    Default Re: Ticketed for Following Too Closely Without Hitting Another Vehicle

    It was a local off-road shop that does mainly toyotas. I can find the name of the kit but its not a factory kit. It's a special off road kit

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