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  1. #1
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    Jul 2015
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    Default Fighting a Red Light Camera Ticket, CVC 21453a

    My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: San Francisco, CA.

    I was visiting San Francisco from Los Angeles when I inadvertently ran a red light. I was lost in an unfamiliar crowded area looking for the freeway to go back to the hotel. I am certain that the light was yellow when I crossed the intersection. My citation states "Red Sec" at 0.4. The elapsed red time is stated as 1.4. If the light was supposedly already read for 0.4 seconds when I crossed it, wouldn't the elapsed time be 1.8? Is there anything I can do to have my ticket dismissed or at the very least, reduced? Thank you for your time.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Fighting a Red Light Camera Ticket, CVC 21453a

    The elapsed time is the time between camera pictures. The second picture was taken 1.4 seconds after the first picture.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Fighting a Red Light Camera Ticket, CVC 21453a

    Quote Quoting Juturna67
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    My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: San Francisco, CA.

    I was visiting San Francisco from Los Angeles when I inadvertently ran a red light. I was lost in an unfamiliar crowded area looking for the freeway to go back to the hotel. I am certain that the light was yellow when I crossed the intersection. My citation states "Red Sec" at 0.4. The elapsed red time is stated as 1.4. If the light was supposedly already read for 0.4 seconds when I crossed it, wouldn't the elapsed time be 1.8? Is there anything I can do to have my ticket dismissed or at the very least, reduced? Thank you for your time.
    Are you the registered owner of the vehicle and is the photo clear enough to see who was driving? As for the elapsed time, this depends on which picture says what. Usually the first picture gives a red time which is allegedly how long the light was red at that moment in time. The second picture usually has another red time and an elapsed time. If you add the red time in the first photo to the elapsed time in the second photo you should come up with the second red time.

    It would help to know which intersection this occurred at, which direction you were traveling, and what movement you were making when the alleged violation occurred. Also, what code were you charged with violating?

    As for your certainty that the light was yellow, this is not uncommon for situations where you possibly crossed the line a fraction of a second after the light turned red. In your case, it was literally the blink of an eye, 0.4 seconds. This occurs because of your perspective sitting behind the wheel. The front of your vehicle elongates out in front of you and you think you are farther ahead than you actually are. It looks to you like the front of your car is past the limit line when in fact it is not.

  4. #4
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    Jul 2015
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    Default Re: Fighting a Red Light Camera Ticket, CVC 21453a

    Quote Quoting freedomminute
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    Are you the registered owner of the vehicle and is the photo clear enough to see who was driving? As for the elapsed time, this depends on which picture says what. Usually the first picture gives a red time which is allegedly how long the light was red at that moment in time. The second picture usually has another red time and an elapsed time. If you add the red time in the first photo to the elapsed time in the second photo you should come up with the second red time.

    It would help to know which intersection this occurred at, which direction you were traveling, and what movement you were making when the alleged violation occurred. Also, what code were you charged with violating?

    As for your certainty that the light was yellow, this is not uncommon for situations where you possibly crossed the line a fraction of a second after the light turned red. In your case, it was literally the blink of an eye, 0.4 seconds. This occurs because of your perspective sitting behind the wheel. The front of your vehicle elongates out in front of you and you think you are farther ahead than you actually are. It looks to you like the front of your car is past the limit line when in fact it is not.
    I am the registered owner and the picture is grainy and not very clear. I was on 1st and Folmont in SF. I was just going straight to get on the freeway up ahead. I was charged with violating CVC 21453a.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Fighting a Red Light Camera Ticket, CVC 21453a

    Quote Quoting Juturna67
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    I am the registered owner and the picture is grainy and not very clear. I was on 1st and Folmont in SF. I was just going straight to get on the freeway up ahead. I was charged with violating CVC 21453a.
    I think you mean Folsom. You may have a defense based on them not being able to identify you beyond a reasonable doubt. However, know that the judges in SF are notorious for finding defendants guilty even when the picture is unclear. Also, they may have access to the original digital versions that may be clearer than what you are looking at. Are you basing your opinion of the picture on the notice they sent or on the photos that are online for you to look at.

    Also, they have to set the yellow time according to the statute and if it's less than the minimum, you could be found not guilty. It's rare that they don't have it set correctly, especially for long running programs like SF but I've seen it happen. At the time of your violation, the posted speed there was 25 mph. This looks like a statutory speed based on a business district but I can't be sure without further research. If so, they are legally allowed to have set the yellow at 3.0 seconds. Starting August 1st, the minimum yellow interval for a statutory or prima facia 25 mph posted road goes up to 3.6 seconds. However that probably won't help you since your violation occurred before the new rules went into effect unless you get a very understanding and lenient judge who understands the argument as to why we got the rules changed and wants to give you a break even though the new time is not required yet (highly unlikely). Also, I don't know what the yellow time is there so I don't know how close they set it to the minimum. Does any of the paperwork have the yellow time on it? On one of the pictures it might say Y=.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
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    Default Re: Fighting a Red Light Camera Ticket, CVC 21453a

    Quote Quoting freedomminute
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    I think you mean Folsom. You may have a defense based on them not being able to identify you beyond a reasonable doubt. However, know that the judges in SF are notorious for finding defendants guilty even when the picture is unclear. Also, they may have access to the original digital versions that may be clearer than what you are looking at. Are you basing your opinion of the picture on the notice they sent or on the photos that are online for you to look at.

    Also, they have to set the yellow time according to the statute and if it's less than the minimum, you could be found not guilty. It's rare that they don't have it set correctly, especially for long running programs like SF but I've seen it happen. At the time of your violation, the posted speed there was 25 mph. This looks like a statutory speed based on a business district but I can't be sure without further research. If so, they are legally allowed to have set the yellow at 3.0 seconds. Starting August 1st, the minimum yellow interval for a statutory or prima facia 25 mph posted road goes up to 3.6 seconds. However that probably won't help you since your violation occurred before the new rules went into effect unless you get a very understanding and lenient judge who understands the argument as to why we got the rules changed and wants to give you a break even though the new time is not required yet (highly unlikely). Also, I don't know what the yellow time is there so I don't know how close they set it to the minimum. Does any of the paperwork have the yellow time on it? On one of the pictures it might say Y=.
    Yes, my mistake. It was Folsom and not Folmont. I saw both sets of pictures. The one's I received in the mail with the citation, and the ones provided online. "original digital versions that may be clearer than what you are looking at" this is why I don't want to lie and claim it wasn't me. I'm not sure what the posted speed limit was there, but I was going 24 MPH. The yellow time on the citation says 2y34

  7. #7

    Default Re: Fighting a Red Light Camera Ticket, CVC 21453a

    Quote Quoting Juturna67
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    Yes, my mistake. It was Folsom and not Folmont. I saw both sets of pictures. The one's I received in the mail with the citation, and the ones provided online. "original digital versions that may be clearer than what you are looking at" this is why I don't want to lie and claim it wasn't me. I'm not sure what the posted speed limit was there, but I was going 24 MPH. The yellow time on the citation says 2y34
    I believe that means that yellow time is set at 3.4 seconds which is legally permissible for a 25 mph zone until August 1st. After August 1st, if there is no speed survey for the roadway then the minimum time would be 3.6 seconds. Even with the new time, it appears you would have violated the red by 0.2 sec which is a ridiculous standard to hold human beings to, but it's legal for them to do so (for now).

    You could also argue that the 25 mph isn't legally posted but you'd have to do some discovery to see if there's a speed survey justifying the 25 mph or what it is otherwise based on. But since you were traveling at 24 mph and the light was apparently set at 3.4 seconds, after the light turned yellow you should have had enough roadway to stop or enough time to cross the limit line before the light turned red. I understand this happened because you were confused by your surroundings and may not have noticed the light turning yellow immediately but the law does not accommodate that excuse. My opinion is that if you admit you were driving and use this explanation as to why you ran the light you will likely be found guilty.

    Your best bet seems to be to do a TBD and use the argument that they have the burden of proof as to who was driving and that the picture is unclear so they can't meet that burden. Note that you don't have to lie and say it wasn't you. You just have to demand that they meet their burden.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
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    4

    Default Re: Fighting a Red Light Camera Ticket, CVC 21453a

    I've been doing as much research as my free time allows me on trial by written declaration. I do agree that if I use the excuse of being lost in an unfamiliar city, I will probably be found guilty. I would honestly be content with a reduced citation but obviously I would rather not have to pay at all haha. I am a college student paying for tuition out of pocket so paying $500 for running a red light by 0.4 seconds is steep and a ridiculous amount to pay. What else can I add to the whole burden of proof argument? Again, thank you very much.

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