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  1. #1

    Lightbulb Ticket for Failure to Stop at the Bottom of a Hill Despite Stopping Briefly, VC 22450

    My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: California

    So I was cited for violating CVC 22450 (a), and am seeking advice on the angle that I am contesting the ticket.

    To begin, the box marked "Violations not committed in my presence, declared on information and belief" has been checked. What does this mean in regards to me contesting the ticket? There is no information regarding the citing officer

    So I was coming down from a steep hill, and made a brief stop, and proceeded forward. This was at night, so I know that there were no cars at the intersection, or I would've seen their headlights. While crossing the intersection, I noticed a car turn on, and immediately knew it was an LEO. I get pulled over shortly and cited for CVC 22450 (a)

    I plan on contesting via TBD, and using the argument that CVC 587 states "Stop or stopping... shall mean any cessation of movement of a vehicle." However, there is no length of time specified. Because I was at the bottom of the hill. I could have briefly ceased the movement of my vehicle, released my brakes, and because of gravity, rolled forward at a faster rate, leading the officer to believe that I ran the stop sign.

    Given the details regarding the checked box on my ticket and the details and angle presented, is this a feasible argument that doesn't incriminate me?

    My final question is: In California, I know that you can declare not guilty via mail vs. showing up in person to do so. Some courts require you to write and send a not guilty plea via mail with bail, and they respond with a TBD form.

    However, it seems to be different for my court, and I just want to confirm whether or not I would still need a not guilty letter prior to my TBD.

    http://www.sfsuperiorcourt.org/sites...v%20101113.pdf

    This is the letter that one would receive after a ticket in my city. It states that I can submit a TBD + Bail, but do I still need to declare not guilty via mail before?


    TL;DR:

    1) "Violations not committed in my presence, declared on information and belief" has been checked. What does this mean in regards to me contesting the ticket? There is no information regarding the citing officer

    2) Brief stop, no specified time in vehicle code, bottom of a hill = proceeding at a higher rate than normal = officer thinking that I didn't stop argument

    3) Do I still need to submit a written not guilty letter prior to TBD, given the instructions in the link above?



    Thank you all in advance!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
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    Default Re: CVC 22450 (A) Failure to Stop - Brief Stop, Bottom of Hill

    I can help you with the first two issues.

    Section 839 of the Penal Code allows someone seeking to make an arrest to summon someone else to assist in the completion of that arrest. Case law states that the person who is summoned may make the arrest just as if it was committed in their presence, even though it was not. More than likely the officer who spotted the violation was, for some reason or another, unable to stop and cite you personally, so he asked a second officer to do so on his behalf. When that happens, the “not in my presence” box gets checked. Should you go to court on this citation, the officer who actually witnessed the violation will appear to testify.

    With respect to the length of your stop, I would offer the following.

    First, you have to stop at a limit line, if marked. If there is no limit line then you must stop before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection. If there is no limit line or crosswalk, you must stop at the entrance to the intersecting roadway. If you don’t stop in the specified places, it doesn’t matter if you sat there for 30 seconds, a violation has occurred.

    Next, most people hit the brakes, feel the car strongly lurch forward and will swear on a stack of bibles that they have come to a full and complete stop because that is what they honestly believe. However, until you also feel the car rock backwards you have not come to a full and complete stop, you have only slowed down. This is where most people get cited for stop sign violations. It’s a bad habit many drivers get into. Hang out at a stop sign for 15 minutes and count the number of violations you see. You’d be surprised.

  3. #3
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    May 2013
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    Default Re: CVC 22450 (A) Failure to Stop - Brief Stop, Bottom of Hill

    To prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt, likely both officers would need to show up, unless the officer witnessing the event was close enough to identify you as the driver. He may well have been that close if he was in a position to see the stop or lack thereof.

    As to TBD, there is one set of rules for TBD and that's from California Rules of Court, 4.210. The Rules of Court are binding on every court in the state but some still don't follow this one, either because of ignorance or because they don't care. Depending on how much of a fight you want to make, if your court isn't following the rules, you can bring that copy of the rules with you to court or write the Presiding Judge to make your point. However, while you're at it DON'T MISS ANY TIME OR APPEARANCE DEADLINE! If needed, and you haven't already used up all your extensions, request an extension, either online or in person.

    At TBD, you'll enter a Not Guilty plea anyway so don't worry about that issue. CRC 4.210 provides that you can make a written request for TBWD by sending that written request to the Court Clerk. The Court Clerk, at that point, is to send your TR205 Forms, inform you of your bail amount (since you may not even know this yet, depending on whether you got a Courtesy Notice yet) and reset your due date 25 days out. If a court requires you to submit your bail OR your TR205 Form without this 25 day reset, then you know your court doesn't follow the rules.

  4. #4

    Default Re: CVC 22450 (A) Failure to Stop - Brief Stop, Bottom of Hill

    @ L-1

    Thanks for the help. I agree with your definition of stopping, but my argument is that this is not clearly defined in vehicle code. As long as I ceased movement of my vehicle during the stop sign, I technically stopped. It doesn't state that I am required for X amount of time, or that my vehicle has to act in a certain manner to constitute the stop.

    On the ticket itself, the area with citing officer info is left blank( although I'm sure its in the system internally), and only the box stating that they did not witness the incident is checked. I believe this may be a "quota" ticket, so what I am getting at is whether or not the definition of stopping is a valid enough argument to prove my innocence.

    - - - Updated - - -

    @donzoh1
    Thanks, Ill try to contact the court via phone (doubt ill get any solid info) to see if I can find out more. seems that at SF superior court, I can skip the first process and proceed directly to a TBWD as soon as I receive a copy of the letter that I posted above, and submit with my payment.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: CVC 22450 (A) Failure to Stop - Brief Stop, Bottom of Hill

    I think you may have missed my point with respect to stopping.

    The question is not how long you stopped, but whether you stopped at all and if you did stop, whether you did so in the appropriate place.

    Most people hit the brakes, feel their car lurch forward and believe they stopped, when in fact they did not do so and only came to a slow roll, thus they get a ticket. In order to have come to a complete stop you must feel the car lurch backwards as well. Most people don't realize that and mistakenly insist they stopped when they did not.

    The other issue is some people actually come to a stop but do so in the wrong place and get cited.

    So, the whole point here is your argument about length of the stop has no relevance in either situation.

    As far as quotas are concerned, California law has prohibited them for many years now so you won't make an impression on the court with that argument.

  6. #6
    Join Date
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    Default Re: CVC 22450 (A) Failure to Stop - Brief Stop, Bottom of Hill

    You do not need to make a written request to plead not guilty first. Print out the TBD form, fill it out and send it in with your check.

  7. #7

    Default Re: CVC 22450 (A) Failure to Stop - Brief Stop, Bottom of Hill

    Quote Quoting L-1
    View Post
    The question is not how long you stopped, but whether you stopped at all and if you did stop, whether you did so in the appropriate place.
    I understand your point regarding stopping, and I do agree with it. However what I am saying is that "stopping" is not clearly defined in the vehicle code. It is not expressed that "In order to have come to a complete stop you must feel the car lurch backwards as well," just the fact that the movement of the vehicle has to be ceased. Given that I was at the bottom of a hill, coming to a "stop" and releasing the brakes would cause the car to roll at a higher rate than normal, looking as if I rolled the stop sign.

    I appreciate your help, as I do need as many counter points as possible to polish my TBWD.

    As far as quotas go, I will not be using that in my argument. Just a mere assumption that I made based on the transaction. I have had similar previous encounters in which the officer has hinted that they won't be show up in court

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Quoting CourtClerk
    View Post
    You do not need to make a written request to plead not guilty first. Print out the TBD form, fill it out and send it in with your check.
    Thanks!!

  8. #8
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    Default Re: CVC 22450 (A) Failure to Stop - Brief Stop, Bottom of Hill

    I don't know how much clearer you can get than what's in the statute which says "complete cessation of movement." If your car is hasn't come to rest on it's suspension (i.e., rock back) it hasn't completely ceased to move.

  9. #9

    Default Re: CVC 22450 (A) Failure to Stop - Brief Stop, Bottom of Hill

    Quote Quoting flyingron
    View Post
    I don't know how much clearer you can get than what's in the statute which says "complete cessation of movement." If your car is hasn't come to rest on it's suspension (i.e., rock back) it hasn't completely ceased to move.
    And I completely agree with you and L-1 regarding how the car is supposed to act on a stop. This is the unspoken rule to stopping, so to speak, but again, this is vaguely (if even) expressed in the vehicle code.

    What I am saying is that as long as the car has ceased movement, then that is a stop according to this vehicle code, no matter for a second or three seconds. You can come to a "stop" without having your suspension rock back, but to many, it is not a full stop, but according to VC 587, it can be constituted as a stop, no? As long as the vehicle has ceased movement at one point on the line, I, according to the vehicle code, can proceed based on CVC 587 is what I am arguing

    Incomplete cessation would mean that you slowed down, and continued, but stopping for a short period and proceeding should be considered a stop under 587

    Im really just looking for loopholes to CVC 587, but it looks like you guys are not buying it one bit

  10. #10
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    Default Re: CVC 22450 (A) Failure to Stop - Brief Stop, Bottom of Hill

    Quote Quoting trackm0nster
    View Post
    Im really just looking for loopholes to CVC 587, but it looks like you guys are not buying it one bit
    Neither am I.

    Stop means stop. Period.

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