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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
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    38,783

    Default Re: End of Watch

    cdwjava;845471]A man or woman who kills a cop is not only a threat to law enforcement, but a threat to anyone and everyone. An assault upon the officer - a symbol of authority - is an affront to civil order, plain and simple.
    Not necessarily true. If the person is intent on killing cops, they are not necessarily a greater danger to the general public.



    I NEVER STATED - NOT ONCE - that law enforcement is the most dangerous career choice out there!
    I never said you did.

    But, NO OTHER career regularly engages in high risk activity on a daily basis by being required to intercede in unpredictable, volatile, and even explosive situations. If it were easy, anyone could do it. It's not.
    go talk to a lineman that works high power lines. You want explosive? Ever see what electricity can do?


    Without these controls - without law and order - we would have anarchy.
    anarchy is a myth but that is a discussion for another day.


    but here you are arguing how much we owe cops. Sorry but that is part of my point right there.

    Yes, the officer is merely one man. But, the daily vitriol spewing forth from our politicians and from the race-baiters and others who have a political agenda are helping to fuel what has become a nearly unprecedented high murder rate of officers this year - mostly within the past few months.
    isn't that odd. We have not heard how may construction workers have lost their lives in the last few months or last few years? Farmers and ranchers? Transportation workers?

    each of those jobs are in the top 10 lists every year of the most dangerous jobs yet we don't make a big deal about them dying because of what they do. Care to guess what would happen if the people in those industries refused to do their jobs?

    and by the way, most of them make less than the average income for a cop.

    L
    et us suppose we offer a shrug and a, "Gee, too bad ... a cop was gunned down ... he was probably a pig," attitude.
    I never even suggested that.

    We hire another bullet catcher and paper pusher and move on, might that be it? Who, then, will respond to your call of a prowler in the middle of the night? Who will respond to your conflict? Theft? Assault? If the citizenry refuses to be concerned with the symbolism that such an assault represents, who, then, will volunteer for a career that requires the individual officer to put his or her life on the line sometimes for little more than minimum wage? It is a calling because it still means something. The people that respond to this calling tend to do so because it is something they choose to do because they believe in the system, the job, and the community. It ain't the money (usually).
    so we need to put cops on a pedestal so they will stay working?

    and cop pay nationwide on average far exceeds minimum wage. I think I saw $55k as the average in one of the sites I cruised through. That is about 3 1/2 times what minimum wage would be.




    My state is seeking to reform salary and pensions to the point that many dedicated law enforcement officers are seeking to bail out before our pensions are ripped away from us.
    ya mean you are going to be subjected to what millions of people have been subjected to in the last several decades? Did you picket United Airlines when they dumped their pension onto the federal Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation?

    And that will truly be sad because we might then see the widespread results of poor policing, thuggery, and even criminal activity by those that we look to for safety.
    have you been asleep for a century or two? Read about Frank Serpico. Do you really think his city is an isolated situation? He nearly died because he tried to clean up the police force. I can only imaging how many good cops have died without it ever being realized it was due to the bad cops.



    I don't ask for anyone's pity or demand them to respect or give a rat's ass for what *I* as an individual do.
    actually by posting what you have here, you have done exactly that.


    But, I do hope that the citizenry understands the symbolism brought about by an assault upon the murder of a law enforcement officer.
    it is nothing greater than that of any other citizen being killed. In fact, an average citizen being killed shows more loss of societal controls than killing a cop. A cop represents many things and are targets because of what they do represent. it is when the average citizen is killed that we have truly lost. In the killing a cop, there is a protest involved. In the killing of a citizen without cause, that is when we have reached a point of the downfall of society.





    .

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    California
    Posts
    20,408

    Default Re: End of Watch

    Well, I am not going to continue the debate here ... I have work to do and funerals to prepare for.

    It is a sad state of affairs when we so casually dismiss the sacrifices made by those who serve the public good. I am sorry that some of you feel the way you do.

    It is fortunate that the vast majority of people still feel a sense of loss when an officer, a soldier, or a firefighter is lost doing what he does. I will be comforted by that fact as I mourn the loss of my brothers this coming week. And, as initially mentioned, I and my brethren shall continue to do our job even for those who have little or no respect for what we do or even why we do it.
    **********
    Retired Cal Cop Sergeant & Teacher

    Seek justice,
    Love mercy,
    Walk humbly with your God

    -- Courageous, by Casting Crowns ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkM-gDcmJeM

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
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    Somewhere near Canada
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    35,894

    Default Re: End of Watch

    Carl, I know this is agony for you and it's a huge wound. I know that. But I'm not seeing anyone dismissing a tragic loss. What I am seeing, is that there are folk who don't rate any particular group higher than another and there's validity there too. I'm pretty much in that camp myself - and I'll own that opinion.

    It's just one situation, one set of facts that will inevitably result in extreme differences of opinion and neither "side" is going to change the mind of the other.

    I do wish you at least a measure of peace in your time of mourning. We can disagree with each other as much as we like, but that doesn't stop us from acknowledging your grief.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Florida
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    2,344

    Default Re: End of Watch

    There is a fundamental difference between the line-of-duty death of a police officer and an industrial accident that kills a worker in a steel mill (where I worked for 5 years many years ago). Yes, to the family left behind the pain and loss is no different. But it is very different to society.

    Someone who kills a judge or one of our elected officials is also going to get higher scrutiny because of the dynamic Carl suggested. Was JFK's life more valuable than someone else's? No, if every human life is of infinite worth then his life was of the same worth as the homeless person who dies in the cold. But surely folks can recognize what the intentional murder of a police officer or other public official represents. It is not the same as the person killed in street violence or domestic violence. It is an attack on society as a whole. Carl said this very well and honestly, I find it shocking that people equate it to putting one class of people on a pedestal. That's extremely misguided. For all the faults I attribute to a small subset of police officers as well as some of the widespread attitudes within their departments that are harmful, there is no doubt that we cannot function as a society without people doing this job, and the intentional killing of one of the is indeed an attack on vastly more than just that individual.

  5. #25
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    Jun 2006
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    Massachusetts
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    24,129

    Default Re: End of Watch

    I never, ever expected to hear myself say this but - What Bubba Jimmy said. And said very well, IMO.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
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    38,783

    Default Re: End of Watch

    It is a sad state of affairs when we so casually dismiss the sacrifices made by those who serve the public good. I am sorry that some of you feel the way you do.
    I never casually dismissed anything. I simply said it is a tragedy no worse than my brethren in my line of work dying in their line of duty. Neither deserve to ask the public to mourn for them any more than anybody else's death.

    A funny thing happened awhile back. I had a telemarketer call my house. He was asking for donations for the fallen police fund of some sort. He gave all the sad stories Carl has relayed here attempting to play on my sympathies as well. I made an offer to him. I said I would donate $1000 to his fund if he would donate in like to my local union's fund to assist the families of those that die in our local. I explained that my line of work is right there with the cops as far as deaths on the job per capita as police work. He quickly ended the conversation, although I will admit, with courtesy unlike most telemarketers. I realize he was a simply a hired telemarketer but I believe he may have understood my point as well.

    It is fortunate that the vast majority of people still feel a sense of loss when an officer, a soldier, or a firefighter is lost doing what he does.
    of course I feel a loss. It's just that I put it at no greater of a loss than when one of my brethren are killed on the job.

    I will be comforted by that fact as I mourn the loss of my brothers this coming week.
    as you should.

    Ezekiel 24:17

    17 Sigh, but not aloud; make no mourning for the dead. Bind on your turban, and put your shoes on your feet; do not cover your lips, nor eat the bread of men.”


    Leviticus 19:28


    28 You shall not make any cuts on your body for the dead or tattoo yourselves: I am the Lord.




    And, as initially mentioned, I and my brethren shall continue to do our job even for those who have little or no respect for what we do or even why we do it.
    I have a great respect for what you do. I simply do not put it above others. I know people that work jobs where they are much more likely to die than the average cop on the job and they go to work every day yet nobody thanks them; nobody shows them any more respect than any other person they come across. They do their work because they chose that line of work. They do it because they get paid to do it. You want somebody to kiss your butt and throw coins at your feet because of what you do? Go be a movie star. Other than that, you're one of us; the blue collar workers of America where we do what we do because we like doing it or it affords us the best life we can derive given our shortcomings. We do not do it because we expect homage.



    Bubba Jimmy;845485]There is a fundamental difference between the line-of-duty death of a police officer and an industrial accident that kills a worker in a steel mill (where I worked for 5 years many years ago). Yes, to the family left behind the pain and loss is no different. But it is very different to society.
    but you seem to have the matter backwards in my opinion. Just as with a soldier; we give due respect for their death but the tragedy is when one of those that have not chosen to put themselves on the front lines is killed. Why a cop does what he does is beyond be but if he does it because he thinks he deserves respect simply because he is a cop; well, he is going to be very disappointed if he talks with me. He still has to earn my respect and putting on blue, alone, doesn't do that.
    Carl said this very well and honestly, I find it shocking that people equate it to putting one class of people on a pedestal.
    actually, I wouldn't have such a problem with that IF they were also pillars of society. The problem is; they aren't.


    They are just as corrupt as a whole as that society they attempt to police. Do you think unlawful detentions, beatings without cause; deaths at the hands of the police have somehow increased since the advent of the cellphone camera? Of course they haven't. It is simply that more of them are becoming known to the public. Far too many are illegal acts of the police. If Carl and others want the police to be given more respect, then Carl and those others better work really hard in cleaning up the system. I know I keep mentioning Frank Serpico but think about it; how many years ago was that? How much corruption is there within a police force that would cause his brethren to actually set him up to be killed? and why? Because he was attempting to clean up that very same system Carl is defending. Does anybody actually think the system has gotten any better since that time?

    If you want respect from me, you must earn it. I believe the police, in general, have been doing a very poor job of earning the respect of the general populace. There is far too much corruption within their own system for the police in whole to be given respect. There are far too many cops with a superiority complex to be able to put themselves in the position of wanting to earn respect. Most of them are the; I'm a cop so I DESERVE respect crowd. Sorry guys but it doesn't work like that. Regardless of the dangers involved, you still have to earn respect.

    . For all the faults I attribute to a small subset of police officers as well as some of the widespread attitudes within their departments that are harmful, there is no doubt that we cannot function as a society without people doing this job, and the intentional killing of one of the is indeed an attack on vastly more than just that individual.
    of course it is a commentary on society; it is a political statement. It does not necessarily mean the populace is any more in danger than any other time. It often means somebody is so tired of the police committing crimes against the populace, crimes committed with near impunity, they were compelled to respond.

    Funny you mention presidents and the like. Sorry dude but they too must earn my respect. I am not a fan of anybody (and realize the word fan comes from fanatic) due to their status. That is why a local guy that is killed in the line of his work is equal to the cop that is killed in his line of work.


    Of course there are the "I'll kill anybody" killers as well but that isn't what we are talking about here. We are talking about people that target cops in particular.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
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    7,454

    Default Re: End of Watch

    Part of the problem here is that not all police departments are the same. Unless you've lived in a lot of different cities, as I have, you may not appreciate just how different the police are from place to place in this country. I’ve lived in a city where the cops were generally known for being outstanding in their dedication, for treating the public with respect, and doing their jobs well. I’ve lived in a city where, on the other hand, the cops had a general reputation for being corrupt, abusive of suspects, and disrespectful of the public they served (and indeed, the government and courts there were also generally corrupt). It is no surprise that the reaction to a cop’s death in the line of duty got a very different response in the former community than in the latter. I’ve also lived in cities where the reputation of the cops fell somewhere between the two. Any nationwide generalization of cops and indeed government generally is going to miss the mark because quite simply they are not all the same across this huge nation of ours.

    While I understand Carl’s frustration at what seems to him to be indifference to the death of cops in the line of duty, as a cop his bias here I think is leading him to conclude the public as a whole is more anti-cop than it is. And that sort of feeling is what starts cops down the road to thinking the public is their enemy, and treating them as enemies. Well, if you treat the public as your enemy, don’t be surprised if they in turn treat you as the enemy.

    The fact is that the public doesn’t do this job and doesn’t feel the connection to it that cops do. So of course you’re not going to see them react to a cop’s death the same way a cop does. To expect that everyone in the public will turn out for a cop’s funeral, for example, is unrealistic. After all, cops aren’t rushing out to funerals in great numbers for persons in other occupations killed while doing their work (except perhaps their fellow civil servants, like firefighters). I wouldn’t expect cops to do that; they don’t have that connection to that other occupation that would lead them to care a great deal about deaths of people in other jobs. Like it or not, people tend to react mostly to the deaths of people to whom they have some kind of personal connection, either a personal relationship, common profession, or whatever. So cops shouldn’t read into any lack of huge public outpouring of grief at the death of an officer some kind of hatred or animus towards cops. Rather, it’s simply human nature at work here: we tend to care most about those close to us and not so much about those with whom we have little common connection.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
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    Default Re: End of Watch

    And this is where I bow out.

    I'm not about to ruin my Sunday feeling completely disgusted. I can watch the Ravens game for that.

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