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  1. #1
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    Feb 2014
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    Question Visitation After a Protective Order Expires

    My question involves a child custody case from the State of: Ohio.

    Long and short of it:

    • Fiancee was in a relationship where the EX was physically and emotionally abusive. (10 year period, never married, two children ages 5 and 8)
    • Fiancee had CPOs off and on, and even had EX put in jail before.
    • Fiancee finally kicked EX out, and got another CPO last August.
    • EX was in violation of CPO 5 times.
    • Contempt motions denied because Magistrate said she waited too long. Magistrate wouldn't let her provide proof that she tried to file Contempt, but EX kept dodging service, resulting in delays in filing. Magistrate denied motion to extend CPO due to contempt as well.
    • Fiancee is tired and sick, misplaced decision, and 14 day period expired and doesn't want to fight any more, amid my objections...
    • CPO is up in two weeks.


    That's the 1st part.

    I have been living with Fiancee a little more than 60% of the time, BTW.


    When CPO is up, we have to develop strategy because:
    1. There are no Visitation orders in place. (They were attached to CPO)
    2. Fiancee has no intent to file Visitation orders. She's leaving it up to him to pursue that.

    Question: Good idea for her to leave it up to him to file? Yes or No?

    Question: If he doesn't file, but shows up at the house, can I call the Police? (I don't want to hurt this man, as incorrigible though he be)

    Question: What rights does he have seeing as she has sole custody, and no Visitation order in place?


    3. Because of his abusive behaviors, EX is not and will NEVER be permitted on my property or near my house. Before CPO was in effect last year, he showed up at her house with a Deputy Sheriff trying to see the children. During that time, ironically, she had just filed an EX Parte order for stalking/menacing/harassment, and the Sheriff relented.

    If this happens again, I'm writing a letter to the Sheriff and copying the Judge, advising them that this is a potential Civil Rights violation. A custodial parent with a history of domestic violence can't have the cops force the victim to let him see the children, can they?

    Question: Do I have the legal right to take such a position?

    4. Because of his abusive behaviors, EX will NEVER be permitted to contact her by phone, email, text, in ANY context. His phone and emails have been blocked. We have been using the OurFamilyWizard site for the past 18 months to communicate Visitation Matters (which were part of the soon to expire CPO), and as far as I'm concerned, that's the ONLY way I'm going to allow them to communicate.

    Question: Could Juvenile court FORCE her to allow him to contact her via phone or email...or could we request that ALL communication be done on OFW directly. Is this unprecedented?

    5. My position is that if he wants to speak to the children outside of his Visitation (which there will be none in a couple of weeks) he can purchase a pre-paid phone and provide it to the children, and we will advise him of the hours (morning, evening, weekends when he can speak to the children on days he doesn't have visitation OR he can email them back and forth on OurFamilyWizard.

    Question: Would my positioning compromise the Fiancee?

    6. I have no issue with him filing a motion to get Visitation of his children. I was divorced and never had an issue seeing my daughter, I paid my CS, and she and I have been very good friends for 30 years. We just didn't work as a married couple. He, however, is an abuser of women, while the children have escaped his sociopathic tendencies. Still, I think every man should be able to see their children. He can do that just fine as long as he:

    a. Picks the children up at school/daycare in the evenings for Visitation.
    b. Drops the children back off at the school/daycare when Visitation is over.


    There will be no picking up and dropping off at my house - ever. If he shows up, for any reason, I will call the Police and keep calling them every time.
    There will be no calling any phones at my house (except the burner phone if he buys it) - ever.

    Question: Is the Pick up your children, drop them off - stay away from us - a sound policy - given his past abuses for which she is undergoing therapy - or not?

    Question: Could the Juvenile Court say: "screw you', he can come to your house and see the children, and you better give him a phone number and email to contact you - or else! If he was a batterer at any time - prove it!"


    One thing I noticed is that the Magistrate appeared to be highly agitated at Fiancee at every turn. Fiancee is not good at public speaking nor is she very good at taking up for herself and the Magistrate seemed to be very impatient and bitchy with her. She (Magistrate) censured her and told her to "be quiet" or "you're not making sense" a lot during the hearings. Very curt and ugly acting. She even refused to allow the Fiancee enter things into evidence. For example, we went to the county commissioners website and printed out the plots in the neighborhood showing the distance from the house to where he came into the neighborhood and tried to lure the children away (he was 274 feet from the house and he was supposed to be 500 feet away). She wrote in her decision that the information was "questionable".

    In the future... we will get an attorney. We were SURE that the 5 occurrences of contempt of CPO were a slam dunk. (showing up near house, dropping off shoes on the porch, sticking stuff in the mailbox, having his boss call her and cuss her out..etc) She said that they were NOT egregious as there was no interpersonal conflict.

    That's all I can think of now..

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Virginia
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    604

    Default Re: Visitation After a Protective Order Expires

    All I can say is man, you are way too deep in this. Sorry, but my best advice to you is to back off a little.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
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    Default Re: Visitation After a Protective Order Expires

    The mother would be wise to continue to honor the visitation schedule that has been followed under the protective order, lest she be accused of trying to undermine the child's relationship with the father. If she forces things to court, she's not at all likely to get a more restrictive order and may well see dad get a lot more visitation.

    You should keep yourself out of the middle. If the mother needs help in court, you should help her retain a lawyer.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    3

    Default Re: Visitation After a Protective Order Expires

    I have learned a few things to protect my parental rights and continue to reach out an learn more as I go along. I am no expert in law and only have my personal experience to draw from.

    I do know that sole custody does not mean the father has lost his parental rights. It just means the mother makes all decisions about the welfare of the child unless he was deemed unfit.

    That does not appear to be the case as it appears the mother went to court and was given sole custody. I assume the father was there fighting and it appears that at that time he was given visitation. That visitation schedule had to come from a court ruling and unless it states, which I doubt, that the schedule expires with the CPO I believe you are absolutely incorrect.

    That's the best I got on this issue, and I have my own interpretation questions right now. Legal documents and courts fall in this "grey" area when it comes to family matters. I read it one way, my ex reads it another, then the court has there own version.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2008
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    Louisville, KY
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    1,877

    Default Re: Visitation After a Protective Order Expires

    madfather, there is nothing "grey" about your situation. It is very cut and dried. You just disagree.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
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    Somewhere near Canada
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    Default Re: Visitation After a Protective Order Expires

    Quote Quoting PapiPG
    View Post
    My question involves a child custody case from the State of: Ohio.

    Long and short of it:

    • Fiancee was in a relationship where the EX was physically and emotionally abusive. (10 year period, never married, two children ages 5 and 8)
    • Fiancee had CPOs off and on, and even had EX put in jail before.
    • Fiancee finally kicked EX out, and got another CPO last August.
    • EX was in violation of CPO 5 times.
    • Contempt motions denied because Magistrate said she waited too long. Magistrate wouldn't let her provide proof that she tried to file Contempt, but EX kept dodging service, resulting in delays in filing. Magistrate denied motion to extend CPO due to contempt as well.
    • Fiancee is tired and sick, misplaced decision, and 14 day period expired and doesn't want to fight any more, amid my objections...
    • CPO is up in two weeks.


    That's the 1st part.

    I have been living with Fiancee a little more than 60% of the time, BTW.


    When CPO is up, we have to develop strategy because:
    1. There are no Visitation orders in place. (They were attached to CPO)
    2. Fiancee has no intent to file Visitation orders. She's leaving it up to him to pursue that.

    Question: Good idea for her to leave it up to him to file? Yes or No?


    She needs an attorney, not you. Seriously. You are NOT helping her.


    Question: If he doesn't file, but shows up at the house, can I call the Police? (I don't want to hurt this man, as incorrigible though he be)
    Put away your machismo. It doesn't count for anything here.

    Sure, you can call the police - and they can roll their eyes and wonder why their time is being wasted.


    Question: What rights does he have seeing as she has sole custody, and no Visitation order in place?
    There appears to be an order in place. I suggest she follows the order until the court decides otherwise. She has left it a tad late though.


    3. Because of his abusive behaviors, EX is not and will NEVER be permitted on my property or near my house. Before CPO was in effect last year, he showed up at her house with a Deputy Sheriff trying to see the children. During that time, ironically, she had just filed an EX Parte order for stalking/menacing/harassment, and the Sheriff relented.
    I believe your fiancee is going to have a very nasty shock if she keeps letting you set the pace and the rules.


    If this happens again, I'm writing a letter to the Sheriff and copying the Judge, advising them that this is a potential Civil Rights violation. A custodial parent with a history of domestic violence can't have the cops force the victim to let him see the children, can they?
    Are you actively trying to give custody to the other parent?

    Letter to the Sheriff? Judge? Civil Rights?

    I'm sure the circular files will be happy to have another piece of paper to join them.


    Question: Do I have the legal right to take such a position?

    Sure you do. But it's not going to help your fiancee.


    4. Because of his abusive behaviors, EX will NEVER be permitted to contact her by phone, email, text, in ANY context. His phone and emails have been blocked. We have been using the OurFamilyWizard site for the past 18 months to communicate Visitation Matters (which were part of the soon to expire CPO), and as far as I'm concerned, that's the ONLY way I'm going to allow them to communicate.
    Uh...WHAT? YOU have no power over where and when contact will be made. You are giving Dad more and more reason to get more parenting time - and you're actually setting the stage for DAD to request that YOU are never to be around the children unsupervised.


    Question: Could Juvenile court FORCE her to allow him to contact her via phone or email...or could we request that ALL communication be done on OFW directly. Is this unprecedented?
    Yes, the court can do that. And yes, the court can also order that you are not present during these exchanges and, perhaps, a "no third party interference" clause can be added.


    5. My position is that if he wants to speak to the children outside of his Visitation (which there will be none in a couple of weeks) he can purchase a pre-paid phone and provide it to the children, and we will advise him of the hours (morning, evening, weekends when he can speak to the children on days he doesn't have visitation OR he can email them back and forth on OurFamilyWizard.
    This is getting silly. Really silly.


    Question: Would my positioning compromise the Fiancee?
    The fact that you have to ask this question is worrisome. I shall spell it out. YES.


    6. I have no issue with him filing a motion to get Visitation of his children. I was divorced and never had an issue seeing my daughter, I paid my CS, and she and I have been very good friends for 30 years. We just didn't work as a married couple. He, however, is an abuser of women, while the children have escaped his sociopathic tendencies. Still, I think every man should be able to see their children. He can do that just fine as long as he:

    a. Picks the children up at school/daycare in the evenings for Visitation.
    b. Drops the children back off at the school/daycare when Visitation is over.
    I'm sure the court will be delighted at the rules you're putting in place. You seem to be forgetting that you have absolutely no say whatsoever about this.


    There will be no picking up and dropping off at my house - ever. If he shows up, for any reason, I will call the Police and keep calling them every time.
    And sooner or later, you will be facing legal problems yourself.

    There will be no calling any phones at my house (except the burner phone if he buys it) - ever.
    More likely: You will not be present any time the children are with your fiancee - ever.


    Question: Is the Pick up your children, drop them off - stay away from us - a sound policy - given his past abuses for which she is undergoing therapy - or not?

    Question: Could the Juvenile Court say: "screw you', he can come to your house and see the children, and you better give him a phone number and email to contact you - or else! If he was a batterer at any time - prove it!"
    You have GOT to be kidding me..please tell me this is a fake post. Please.
    One thing I noticed is that the Magistrate appeared to be highly agitated at Fiancee at every turn. Fiancee is not good at public speaking nor is she very good at taking up for herself and the Magistrate seemed to be very impatient and bitchy with her. She (Magistrate) censured her and told her to "be quiet" or "you're not making sense" a lot during the hearings. Very curt and ugly acting. She even refused to allow the Fiancee enter things into evidence. For example, we went to the county commissioners website and printed out the plots in the neighborhood showing the distance from the house to where he came into the neighborhood and tried to lure the children away (he was 274 feet from the house and he was supposed to be 500 feet away). She wrote in her decision that the information was "questionable".

    In the future... we will get an attorney. We were SURE that the 5 occurrences of contempt of CPO were a slam dunk. (showing up near house, dropping off shoes on the porch, sticking stuff in the mailbox, having his boss call her and cuss her out..etc) She said that they were NOT egregious as there was no interpersonal conflict.

    That's all I can think of now..
    Please go get your fiancee, and allow her to read this ( you do allow her access, right?)

    Dear Fiancee,

    If your "fiance" carries on with this garbage, you risk becoming the visiting parent with a clause saying your fiance can't be present during your parenting time. He doesn't seem to actually understand his role which is, quite simply, to hold your hand once you leave the courtroom. Follow his "advice" (which might just be the most atrocious exhibition of overstepping Napoleonism I've ever seen) is a dreadful idea. In fact, we're desperately hoping that this isn't actually a real post or, maybe, hopefully, one of the parties wanting to know how bad their ideas might be.

    If this carries on, you may be given a choice.

    Your kids, or your fiance.

    You choose.

    Sincerely,

    The Rest Of Us.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Quoting mmmagique
    View Post
    madfather, there is nothing "grey" about your situation. It is very cut and dried. You just disagree.

    Admittedly I'm sitting here all... "dude...".


  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2008
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    Louisville, KY
    Posts
    1,877

    Default Re: Visitation After a Protective Order Expires

    *lol* My husband hates when I call him dude. (but I do it all the time...)

  8. #8
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    Apr 2009
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    Default Re: Visitation After a Protective Order Expires

    Quote Quoting mmmagique
    View Post
    *lol* My husband hates when I call him dude. (but I do it all the time...)

    Heh.

    It's funnier to my husband because of my accent...

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    244

    Default Re: Visitation After a Protective Order Expires

    Quote Quoting Dogmatique
    View Post
    Heh.

    It's funnier to my husband because of my accent...
    Oh tape it and send it to me, so I can play that when I want to call my husband "dude". I so love messing with my husband. My moms long time next door neighbor has an English accent, I can sit and talk to him for hours, just love accents.

    For the poster listen to everybody, your going to hand this dad all the cards by sticking your nose into it. 3rd parties must remain out of it, specially at drop off and pick up. I'm a 3rd party who has to do exchanges, and I ignore everything the parent says to me or my daughter(if I'm around when she does them). It's just the person BAITING YOU and you would be a serious fool if you fall for it, you will find yourself being banned by court order from being there at drop off and pick up.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    14

    Default Re: Visitation After a Protective Order Expires

    LOL.

    Apparently I was a bit too transparent and vigilant, so allow me to clarify, plus I'm pretty sure this was a TL ; DR scenario.

    The long and short of it is:

    1. I certainly wish for the children to be able to see and have a relationship with their father. It's in the best interest for the children to do so.

    2. It's not in the best interest for the mother to do so, however.

    3. I certainly do not wish to have anything to do with the father either, because I don't run with criminals, abusers, incorrigible wife-beating n*gger thugspawn (and I say that as a non-white person) and overall common folks who refuse to atone for their sinful and repugnant works. You can choose to call it what you want, machismo, self-righteousness, religious right-wing fascism..I could not care less. I'm a god-fearing law abiding citizen. People of faith are public enemy #1 so...fire away. (And yes, there is a time to have contempt for evil, whether some may disagree with that)

    4. No, I am not an attorney, and yes I plan to foot the bill for one.

    5. There was not battle for custody. They were never married. The only subsequent proceedings were for Child Support and for the CPO's that were put in place. He never ever mentioned wanting custody, from what I've observed and was told over the past few years.

    6. No I'm not a fool. Don't mistake the tenor and vividness (or as Dogmatique might assert, lack..) of communication is folly. I understand all you have to go on is what I've written, and that's fair. I was trying to paint a picture.

    7. I asked questions. As a lurker here, I do understand about the latent dismissive-ness when things are not "framed" according to some preferences, but they were actually real questions.

    There appears to be an order in place. I suggest she follows the order until the court decides otherwise. She has left it a tad late though.
    The Visitation order expires when the CPO does, according to what I'm reading. My question was what rights does a father have when they were not married, the mother is sole custodian and guardian, and there is no visitation order in place (the CPO expires in a couple of weeks)

    I believe your fiancee is going to have a very nasty shock if she keeps letting you set the pace and the rules.
    Why? Because I don't tolerate evil? Or because of the Feminist Imperative? Remember some people believe that husbands shouldn't throw their wives under the bus by allowing them to be defiled by the lesser elements of society. So, we differ here, not to mention my style of communication may not be palatable to you. The rule is, my family doesn't associate with criminals, abusers, liars, cheaters, gossips, hood-rats or the like. I choose to honor the fact that children should have relationships with their parents, even if they are of malignant spirit and character. But that doesn't mean I want them at my house or on my property. That's all I'm saying.

    More likely: You will not be present any time the children are with your fiancee - ever.
    I doubt it. Based on what? And when? Before - or after - marriage? Sure, the courts and system are the authors of Marriage 2.0 and all the destructive damages therein, but they can't put me out of my own home where the wife and children will reside. I'd like to see them try it. Not to mention, I've done - and will do nothing for such brazen treachery to take place.

    3rd parties must remain out of it, specially at drop off and pick up. I'm a 3rd party who has to do exchanges, and I ignore everything the parent says to me or my daughter(if I'm around when she does them). It's just the person BAITING YOU and you would be a serious fool if you fall for it, you will find yourself being banned by court order from being there at drop off and pick up.
    I'm only in it to the extent that it could affect my household.

    It's my hope that there is NEVER any exchanges. As it stands, they have no contact. He picks them up at school/daycare, and drops them off at school/daycare. While unrealistic, it would be nice if that were the arrangement forever, but I know it won't.

    As far as the potential for 3rd party drop/offs pick/ups, you're reading too much into my contempt for this person. I'm not going to say or do anything to hurt this man, because I don't plan to be anywhere near him, even if I do exchanges. IF I have to do exchanges (because she will NOT), then it's kids get out of his car and into mine and we drive off.

    Now is it regards this:

    Question: Could the Juvenile Court say: "screw you', he can come to your house and see the children, and you better give him a phone number and email to contact you - or else! If he was a batterer at any time - prove it!"

    You have GOT to be kidding me..please tell me this is a fake post. Please.
    Kidding about what, specifically? You might think that judges and magistrates are good people who are innately just. I do not. I do not think that's beyond the realm of possibility that a judge or magistrate would deliberately put a victim of DV back in harms way, just because they can. They do it all the time.

    So what's so FAKE about what I've written here?

    No doubt my lens is different...and while I look at things through a spiritual moral lens, I asked the question here because that has no bearing on the legal aspect, which there are many here who have inroads into such. Surely an odd and highly disparaged view that I, and many people hold, but it's nonetheless true.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Quoting Mr. Knowitall
    View Post
    The mother would be wise to continue to honor the visitation schedule that has been followed under the protective order, lest she be accused of trying to undermine the child's relationship with the father. If she forces things to court, she's not at all likely to get a more restrictive order and may well see dad get a lot more visitation.

    You should keep yourself out of the middle. If the mother needs help in court, you should help her retain a lawyer.
    Thanks Mr Knowitall..

    Visitation by the Father would be welcomed, if he would exercise it. He hasn't seen the children but once since Thanksgiving. And mommy sure could use a break, as an individual and also so we can have some us time.

    I wouldn't date a woman who refused to allow children to see the father, unless he's been proven to have engaged in physical or sexual abuse or some criminal activity...which is a no brainer as the authorities would have already been involved.

    We're not trying to keep him away from the children..just away from everyone else whom he has transgressed. Perpetrators of DV are not really known to harm children, except in rare circumstances...but I could be understating what I've read or it could be incomplete as far as statistics are concerned.

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