Is it Theft to Not Give a Refund for Services Not Rendered

[starry]

It does not mean you can't claim unjust enrichment either way. If your slot was not filled but they used your money for the rental, you still didn't get any benefit and they all did. If they did fill your slot and kept your money, then they all had to pay less for the rental and you still didn't derive any benefit.

One question about your comment on sending a snail mail rather than an email. I doubt I will be able to get all of their mailing addresses (they might not reply to my email requesting it and for sure they would question why I need their addresses). Also, some of them live in different states. Would be easier to CC all of them on a single email. What are your thoughts?

And for any and all who care to provide suggestions: What are other points to include in the letter I send them? I will include the unjust enrichment. what about lack of any contract since I never explicitly agreed to meeting their arbitrary deadline for responding by email? One girl claims that our text messags are a contract, but I never agreed to any terms one way or another (ie, I did not state I would send an email by a certain time)

[budwad]

Look starry, this is not a complicated situation and you are overthinking it. If you don't have the names and address of all the members, then send one letter to the person you sent your money to and let her/him deal with it. I don't know what is in the text messages. I don't know what you agreed to do and by when. Could the text messages be construed as a contract? I don't know. Did the text messages expressly say that failure to respond or provide certain information constitutes a forfeiture of your money? I doubt it.

So it is simple. A bunch of people think it's a good idea to rent a property for two weeks of fun. The cost of the rental is divided by the number of people going. Each sends in their money. You did not get to go because your slot was canceled. It wasn't canceled by the rental people, it was canceled by someone in the group that was organizing the event. They used your money to reduce the actually cost for each by eliminating one slot (since your slot was not filled). It may not be strictly a monetary advantage but fewer people used the rental and that may be a benefit to the group.

There is no legal doctrine that I know of that says, "you brought it upon yourself so I can keep your money." There has to be equitability in any deal. I do this and you do that. But a person can cause themselves damage by their actions. I just don't think that has happened here.

Send the letter and see what happens.

[Mr. Knowitall]

Do not send an email to the members. Send a letter, either certified with RRR or send it registered mail. That way you know who got it and who didn't.

First, all certified mail does is show that somebody received an envelope. If there is no legal benefit to showing that somebody received the envelope, and here there is none, then it's a waste of money. It makes no legal difference to the validity of the demand to be able to show that an envelope supposedly containing the demand was received by somebody in the intended recipient's household. Further, if people aren't home to sign for certified letters, the result is a delay in delivery and possibly the return of the letter after enough failed delivery attempts. Certified letters can also be refused.

You don't use registered mail for ordinary letters, as they have no value.

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A group of friends split the payment for 2 weeks of accommodation at a rental property. I paid my share 3 months in advance, but 2 weeks before we were due to move in, I was told by one of the people in the group that if I didn't respond to her email requesting confirmation of my stay she would cancel my reservation.

These are your friends, but you don't know where they live?

How can this person cancel your reservation if you're collectively renting a property for a two week period? The property doesn't get any smaller if somebody doesn't show up. If your space was not filled by somebody else, what actually stopped you from showing up and using it?

I emailed her confirming my stay, but she went ahead and cancelled my reservation any way and I was not able to avail the rental.

Please do a better job of explaining what happened.

...and did not provide her enough information when I replied to her...

What information did you supposedly omit from your response?

Side note, I never agreed to her request, which as far as I can tell means we did not have any form of a contract, verbal or written. Is this correct?)

Your contract was for access to the rental property. Beyond that, you've told us absolutely nothing about this person's role or authority in relation to the reservation.

Small claims court is the last of my options and I am in no rush to meet them there!

In California, to sue in small claims court you must serve the defendants within the state of California. From what you have told us, that would be a real problem for you.

And for any and all who care to provide suggestions: What are other points to include in the letter I send them?

Without knowing exactly what happened and why, it would be inappropriate to suggest legal terms or jargon for your letter.

[budwad]

First, all certified mail does is show that somebody received an envelope. If there is no legal benefit to showing that somebody received the envelope, and here there is none, then it's a waste of money. It makes no legal difference to the validity of the demand to be able to show that an envelope supposedly containing the demand was received by somebody in the intended recipient's household. Further, if people aren't home to sign for certified letters, the result is a delay in delivery and possibly the return of the letter after enough failed delivery attempts. Certified letters can also be refused.

You don't use registered mail for ordinary letters, as they have no value.

I think there is a presumption that what you say is in the envelope is in the envelope.

So how would you send the demand letter?

[Mr. Knowitall]

No, there is no such presumption.

When there is no benefit to sending the letter by certified mail, I use first class mail. If I want proof that I mailed something, I can get proof of mailing at the post office for considerably less than the cost of certified mail.

[budwad]

No, there is no such presumption.

When there is no benefit to sending the letter by certified mail, I use first class mail. If I want proof that I mailed something, I can get proof of mailing at the post office for considerably less than the cost of certified mail.

What would be a benefit to sending a letter by certified mail then? What is the proof that you get from the USPS for a letter that was sent and delivered other than a receipt of the zip code it was sent to and you paid for it?

If there is no presumption that the envelope contains what you say it contains, then how do you prove that pleadings delivered by an attorney messenger service contain the pleadings? How do you prove that a patent application contains the application? How do you prove anything was in the envelope at all?

[Mr. Knowitall]

In some contexts, sending a certified letter is legally required, or is necessary to prevent consequences in the event that the recipient denies delivery (e.g., of a notice canceling insurance). In some contexts, such as when you're sending something of value, you will want proof that a package was received. In some circumstances you'll want to be certain that your letter is received by a specific person, and certified mail permits you to also add the option of restricted delivery....

Presumptions created as the result of a specific statute or court rule do not apply in other contexts; but even in court it's not the return receipt that creates a presumption about what was in the envelope, but the proof of service.

All of this is fodder for another thread, not this one.

[starry]

I appreciate all the replies, even if some of them veered off topic. Would it be possible to PM you, Mr. Knowitall some of the details rather than posting publicly? If not, then I'll post some more information about the situation, but it will be a bit vague, still.

[starry]

PLease find my replies in red and embedded in the quote.

First, all certified mail does is show that somebody received an envelope. If there is no legal benefit to showing that somebody received the envelope, and here there is none, then it's a waste of money. It makes no legal difference to the validity of the demand to be able to show that an envelope supposedly containing the demand was received by somebody in the intended recipient's household. Further, if people aren't home to sign for certified letters, the result is a delay in delivery and possibly the return of the letter after enough failed delivery attempts. Certified letters can also be refused.

You don't use registered mail for ordinary letters, as they have no value.

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These are your friends, but you don't know where they live?

I only know a few of them from the group (they are all mutual friends with each other).

How can this person cancel your reservation if you're collectively renting a property for a two week period? The property doesn't get any smaller if somebody doesn't show up. If your space was not filled by somebody else, what actually stopped you from showing up and using it?

Her threats of "I won't let you in if you show up"....

Please do a better job of explaining what happened.

I'd prefer to PM details and direct quotes from logs, but in general, I paid for a weeks' stay at a rental 2 months in advance. She said in order to confirm my stay I would have to get permission from the owners. But her statements weren't specific and I interpreted them as, the owners would notify her directly that I contacted them. So I emailed her that I spoke with the owners and received their permission. She insists that I was supposed to forward the communication from the owners to her (as opposed to her receiving a response directly from the owners) by some arbitrary deadline. THe email I sent to her was received by this "deadline".


What information did you supposedly omit from your response?

according to her, not forwarding the email from the owners to her

Your contract was for access to the rental property. Beyond that, you've told us absolutely nothing about this person's role or authority in relation to the reservation.

apparently someone died and made her leader. I was not informed of this death and subsequent transfer of power.

In California, to sue in small claims court you must serve the defendants within the state of California. From what you have told us, that would be a real problem for you.

Indeed. Furthermore, she has already stated I can take the logs of our communications and 'meet her in court'. I am hoping by consulting this forum, I can get advice/suggestions for drafting a convincing demand letter.

Without knowing exactly what happened and why, it would be inappropriate to suggest legal terms or jargon for your letter.
I'd prefer to PM details and communications logs, if that would be ok with you or anyone else would be willing to help.