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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
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    Default Speeding in a School Zone When Lights are Flashing

    My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: kansas

    Hey guys, I was turning into a school zone, came up a hill, and on my way down I seen a stationary patrol car and was pulled over for going 34 in a 25 (school zone) after I passed him. I did not pass any school zone sign. Here's a pic of a map I plan to use in court



    I made a right on Maurer (the street with blue dots) from W 82nd. On 81st and Maurer (where the blue dots end at the top) is where the southbound 25 mph school zone when flashing sign is posted. The citation says I was clocked at the crest of the hill on 83rd and Maurer. The cop was positioned at the end of the blue dots at the bottom at 8351 Maurer. I will also note that there is a 30mph sign at 83rd and Maurer and is the first sign you see after coming over the hill southbound.

    I already made a discovery request for the Radar Manual (denied), the officer's notes (denied, said I can get any information directly from the officer at trial), the radar's certification along with tuning forks (posted below), and the officer's training certifications (posted below)

    Radar Certification:

    First red flag, the certification was OVER 2 years from the date of the citation. Do I have a case here? Also the device is a Stalker DSR 2X. Is this Lidar or Radar? I was not able to find the manual for this on the internet. You need a pw to view it from the manufactures website. Any advice here?

    Same with the tuning fork certification, over 2 years from the date of citation :
    http://i.imgur.com/6lDsyLo.jpg

    Officer Training Qualifications:


    Anything of note here?

    As noted in the subject, my trial date was actually today, but the officer did not show due to sickness. Prosecution asked for continuance which I objected to and motioned to dismiss for lack of prosecution. The Judge ruled that since I asked for and was granted a continuance a month before, she thought it was fair to grant the prosecution a continuance as well. Instead of leaving, I stayed and watch another trial in which the defendant had been cited for speeding in a school zone. This is what I noted about how the prosecution and officer will work together to prosecute these kind of cases:

    - The officer will testify to using internal calibration and tuning forks before and after their shift to verify that the radar is in working order. Can I use this against the prosecution if the officer in my case testifies to the same thing?

    - The officer will testify to checking that the school zone lights were indeed flashing but did not state that they did so immediately before and after the citation. Do I have a case if I argue that since the officer did not check if the lights were flashing immediately before and after my citation, and could not have possibly seen the south bound school zone lights on 81st and Maurer from his location on the other side of the hill? The officer also testifies to the actual time the signs are "supposed" to be flashing.

    - The officer will testify to have gotten a visual estimate before he clocked me. Since he could not have possibly seen me from over the hill from his location, it appears that he will have seen me at 83rd and Maurer. If it takes him 3 seconds to get a visual estimate. Do I have a chance to argue that at 34 MPH I would be about very very close to passing the 30mph speed limit sign on 83rd and Maurer when he actually clocked me with radar?

    - The officer does not testify to the exact location of his vehicle or the defendants, road conditions, or traffic conditions. Any way I can use this to my advantage?

    I also have pictures of the speed limit signs, video of the route I took, pictures and video of the officers vantage point, etc.

    Sorry this is so long. Wanted to include all relevant info I had. Think I have any chance? Thanks for reading.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I forgot to add that the Judge made a big deal about how she did not feel like Radar was a good way to determine speed. She told the defendant that she hated the fact the the city did not use Lidar like other surrounding cities. She found the defendant guilty (he didn't have a good case anyway) but said she would lower the fine due to the radar and confusion due to the position of the signs in that case. I plan to use this to my advantage and attack the possible shortcomings that radars have.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Speeding in a School Zone When Lights are Flashing

    Quote Quoting dj-method-x
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    Hey guys, I was turning into a school zone, came up a hill, and on my way down I seen a stationary patrol car and was pulled over for going 34 in a 25 (school zone) after I passed him.
    You don't dispute that?
    Quote Quoting dj-method-x
    I made a right on Maurer (the street with blue dots) from W 82nd.
    So your intended argument is that you were unfamiliar with the area and believed that the default speed limit of 30 MPH applied, reinforced by your seeing the 30 MPH speed limit sign ahead of you, and didn't realize that there was an elementary school beyond the park?
    Quote Quoting dj-method-x
    First red flag, the certification was OVER 2 years from the date of the citation.
    I don't see a statute on the issue; it may be governed by local police regulations. I suggest trying to determine the ticketing department's policies as, although you'll still have to deal with a visual estimate, it's to your advantage to exclude the radar measurement.
    Quote Quoting dj-method-x
    Is this Lidar or Radar?
    it's radar.
    Quote Quoting dj-method-x
    I was not able to find the manual for this on the internet.
    Keep looking, or consider FOIA.
    Quote Quoting dj-method-x
    The officer will testify to using internal calibration and tuning forks before and after their shift to verify that the radar is in working order. Can I use this against the prosecution if the officer in my case testifies to the same thing?
    Can you use what against the officer? If the officer testifies that the radar was properly tested and was working, that's evidence that would weigh against you.
    Quote Quoting dj-method-x
    Do I have a case if I argue that since the officer did not check if the lights were flashing immediately before and after my citation, and could not have possibly seen the south bound school zone lights on 81st and Maurer from his location on the other side of the hill? The officer also testifies to the actual time the signs are "supposed" to be flashing.
    Snowballs, I suspect, have better chances in Hades, but if that's all you have to work with....
    Quote Quoting dj-method-x
    - The officer will testify to have gotten a visual estimate before he clocked me. Since he could not have possibly seen me from over the hill from his location, it appears that he will have seen me at 83rd and Maurer. If it takes him 3 seconds to get a visual estimate. Do I have a chance to argue that at 34 MPH I would be about very very close to passing the 30mph speed limit sign on 83rd and Maurer when he actually clocked me with radar?
    You are free to present whatever arguments you want to present. Made-up numbers about how long it takes an officer to estimate your speed, though, aren't likely to amount to much.
    Quote Quoting dj-method-x
    The officer does not testify to the exact location of his vehicle or the defendants, road conditions, or traffic conditions. Any way I can use this to my advantage?
    Road conditions are normally noted on the ticket. How would they be relevant to your speed?

    Be careful how you tread. If you have a judge who is sympathetic to arguments about confusing signage, you can shoot yourself in the foot by focusing first on dubious technical defenses before making a case that you were doing your best to comply with the speed limit and only exceeded it due to the placement of the signs and the lack of notice that you were in a 25 MPH zone. Your measured 34 MPH speed, though, would remain an issue with a 30 MPH speed limit.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
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    Default Re: Speeding in a School Zone When Lights are Flashing

    Quote Quoting Mr. Knowitall
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    So your intended argument is that you were unfamiliar with the area and believed that the default speed limit of 30 MPH applied, reinforced by your seeing the 30 MPH speed limit sign ahead of you, and didn't realize that there was an elementary school beyond the park?
    That's how it happened. I was visiting a friend for the first time. I didn't reach her house the same route I was going when I got the ticket. This area was completely unfamiliar to me.

    Quote Quoting Mr. Knowitall
    View Post
    I don't see a statute on the issue; it may be governed by local police regulations. I suggest trying to determine the ticketing department's policies as, although you'll still have to deal with a visual estimate, it's to your advantage to exclude the radar measurement.
    I'll give this a try

    Quote Quoting Mr. Knowitall
    View Post
    Can you use what against the officer? If the officer testifies that the radar was properly tested and was working, that's evidence that would weigh against you.
    I've read that some judges only consider a radar properly tested if the test is done at the same location where the citation was made. Something about different locations having different variables that can affect the test. Sounds like a long shot though.

    Quote Quoting Mr. Knowitall
    View Post
    Road conditions are normally noted on the ticket. How would they be relevant to your speed?
    If traffic was heavy, the officer's radar beam could have measured someone else besides mine.

    Quote Quoting Mr. Knowitall
    View Post
    Be careful how you tread. If you have a judge who is sympathetic to arguments about confusing signage, you can shoot yourself in the foot by focusing first on dubious technical defenses before making a case that you were doing your best to comply with the speed limit and only exceeded it due to the placement of the signs and the lack of notice that you were in a 25 MPH zone. Your measured 34 MPH speed, though, would remain an issue with a 30 MPH speed limit.
    This is great advice, will definitely keep this in mind. Thanks alot

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
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    Default Re: Speeding in a School Zone When Lights are Flashing

    Quote Quoting dj-method-x
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    I forgot to add that the Judge made a big deal about how she did not feel like Radar was a good way to determine speed. She told the defendant that she hated the fact the the city did not use Lidar like other surrounding cities. She found the defendant guilty (he didn't have a good case anyway) but said she would lower the fine due to the radar and confusion due to the position of the signs in that case. I plan to use this to my advantage and attack the possible shortcomings that radars have.
    And you think you are going to beat the ticket after seeing the other guy get nailed for the same thing?

    Good luck.

    PS: What do you think cops did before any kind of radar was available to them?

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