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  1. #1
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    Jun 2014
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    Default Defenses for Failing to Stop at the Limit Line for a Stop Sign

    My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: CA

    Received ticket for stopping at the stop sign rather than the limit line.
    It was at night and there was no street lamp at the end of the off ramp, so the intersection is very dark. The stop sign was aprox. 10-12 feet before the limit line and the road is on a down grade approaching the intersection. The stop sign is new and clearly visible. The limit line is faded and even completely worn away in the middle of it. The officer wrote, "22450 (a) VC Stop at stop sign, limit line req."

    What should I write in the TBD to have the best chance of being found not guilty?

  2. #2
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    Sep 2010
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    Default Re: Stopped at Sign, Not Line. What Defense Should I Use to Fight the Ticket in a TBD

    I'd argue that the small distance between where you stopped and the actual line is insignificant. Ten feet? I could understand if you were a car length away, but if the cop admitted you stopped where you did on the ticket, I'd certainly argue it.

    Generally I don't recommend TBD, but you certainly sound like you have a reasonable case and if you lose I'd certainly take it to a TDN.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Stopped at Sign, Not Line. What Defense Should I Use to Fight the Ticket in a TBD

    Here is the section:

    22450. (a) The driver of any vehicle approaching a stop sign at the entrance to, or within, an intersection shall stop at a limit line, if marked, otherwise before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection.

    If there is no limit line or crosswalk, the driver shall stop at the entrance to the intersecting roadway .

    Note the requirement to stop "at a limit line." It says the driver SHALL, not MAY or CAN, but SHALL.

    Now, that does not mean that a judge may decide to dismiss the matter based upon the driver's perceived reasonable action, but the driver might have to articulate why they stopped at the stop sign and not at the limit line. It may well appear that they had intended to blow the stop sign but only stopped when they suddenly saw the officer.

    Most the courts I have worked with have held that the limit line is pretty sacred in this regard. Your court may differ.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Stopped at Sign, Not Line. What Defense Should I Use to Fight the Ticket in a TBD

    And what is the tolerance of "at the limit line?" Is my bumper supposed to be casting a shadow no the line Should I be able to see the line over my hood? I'm sorry but since the cop made the statement that he decided to be a turd and write up a driver who clearly was attempting to comply with the law and arguably DID comply with the law, I'd certainly give it the fullest defense.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Stopped at Sign, Not Line. What Defense Should I Use to Fight the Ticket in a TBD

    Quote Quoting flyingron
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    And what is the tolerance of "at the limit line?" Is my bumper supposed to be casting a shadow no the line Should I be able to see the line over my hood? I'm sorry but since the cop made the statement that he decided to be a turd and write up a driver who clearly was attempting to comply with the law and arguably DID comply with the law, I'd certainly give it the fullest defense.
    I don't see where the officer is said to have made ANY statement of the sort.

    And, as I said, my experience says that most people who I observe stop AFTER the limit line tend to do so only because I was present - it's a last moment, clear, sudden stop. That may not have been the case here, but, it is certainly possible that the court can consider the officer's observation of the location and nature of the stop as part of the consideration.

    The court can do what it pleases, of course. But, the LAW states that the stop SHALL be at the limit line - not after. And 10-12 feet AFTER the limit line is darn near a car length, and almost certainly at or after the location where a sidewalk and a pedestrian might step onto the street (or a bicyclist or a skateboarder, etc.).

    There is a reason why the limit line is set back a ways, and why the law says to stop there and not at the prolongation of the curb line (except in the absence of a limit line).

    Now, if he can get pictures of this faded limit line and it shows, clearly, that the line is darn near invisible, then I suspect the OP will prevail. As it is, the OP is simply going to have to hope for the court's indulgence.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Stopped at Sign, Not Line. What Defense Should I Use to Fight the Ticket in a TBD

    And, as I said, my experience says that most people who I observe stop AFTER the limit line tend to do so only because I was present - it's a last moment, clear, sudden stop. That may not have been the case here, but, it is certainly possible that the court can consider the officer's observation of the location and nature of the stop as part of the consideration.
    op stopped at the sign. The sign was 10-12 feet before the stop bar. Officer apparently even noted that OP stopped at the sign.



    A cop giving a ticket when the guy obviously and admittedly stopped at the sign but didn't stop at the bar a few feet beyond the sign is being overly picky.

    The court can do what it pleases, of course. But, the LAW states that the stop SHALL be at the limit line - not after. And 10-12 feet AFTER the limit line is darn near a car length, and almost certainly at or after the location where a sidewalk and a pedestrian might step onto the street (or a bicyclist or a skateboarder, etc.).
    10-12 feet BEFORE

    The stop sign was aprox. 10-12 feet before the limit line and the road is on a down grade approaching the intersection.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Stopped at Sign, Not Line. What Defense Should I Use to Fight the Ticket in a TBD

    Quote Quoting flyingron
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    And what is the tolerance of "at the limit line?" Is my bumper supposed to be casting a shadow no the line Should I be able to see the line over my hood?
    When a line is present you are supposed to stop at the line, before any part of your car crosses the line. See, e.g., People v. Binkowski (2007) 157 Cal.App.4th Supp. 1, 68 Cal. Rptr. 3d 741.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Stopped at Sign, Not Line. What Defense Should I Use to Fight the Ticket in a TBD

    Quote Quoting Mr. Knowitall
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    When a line is present you are supposed to stop at the line, before any part of your car crosses the line. See, e.g., People v. Binkowski (2007) 157 Cal.App.4th Supp. 1, 68 Cal. Rptr. 3d 741.
    Yeah, he did so. The question remains, is one inch behind the line at the line? A foot? A car length?

  9. #9
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Stopped at Sign, Not Line. What Defense Should I Use to Fight the Ticket in a TBD

    Quote Quoting flyingron
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    I'd argue that the small distance between where you stopped and the actual line is insignificant. Ten feet? I could understand if you were a car length away, but if the cop admitted you stopped where you did on the ticket, I'd certainly argue it.

    Generally I don't recommend TBD, but you certainly sound like you have a reasonable case and if you lose I'd certainly take it to a TDN.
    I would hesitate to say stopping at the stop sign was adequate without knowing the intersection. If the view is obstructed at the corner then a 10-12ft distance is very significant.

    There isn't much difference between 12 ft and a car length.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Stopped at Sign, Not Line. What Defense Should I Use to Fight the Ticket in a TBD

    Quote Quoting brownj12
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    There isn't much difference between 12 ft and a car length.
    Unless you're driving a smart car there is. Even a Toyota Corolla is significantly larger than that.

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