Police Forcibly Removed a Former Tenant from the Apartment Complex

[Disagreeable]

Until transporters like you see in Star Trek are developed, you must cross the landlords property and can be banned. When that happens, law will evolve with it.

[cdwjava]

If he was evicted by a court, it is possible that the court order prohibited him from setting foot on the property without the police or permission from management. If there is such a order restraining him from the property, then it really wouldn't matter that he was a guest.

So, what's the goal with this? Are you wanting to sue the police or the landlord for forcibly removing you from a friend's apartment? Or, is this merely an academic exercise?

[Mr. Knowitall]

Well the main issue is whether a property manager can prevent a visitor from entering a tenant's apartment. Can you be trespassing if you are in a tenant's apartment?

This has been covered, now twice: You can't get to a tenant's apartment without crossing through areas that belong to the landlord.

I've been taking a lot of time to research this on the web. Here is one Attorney's answer I just found:...

It's not a good answer. The attorney refers to a "rational basis", which is a test courts can apply when reviewing the constitutionality of state and federal law, but is not a test that you would apply to a trespass ban by a private individual. The attorney does implicitly cover an important issue, though: To the extent that there is a right to have a guest, it belongs to the current tenant. The former tenant has no legal basis to assert a right to enter somebody else's property. If the tenants want to take up the issue with the landlord, and try to get the landlord to change his mind, nothing is stopping them. If they want to sue the landlord, they can file a lawsuit; but they should not be surprised, win or lose, if their lease isn't renewed when its term expires.

You're choosing to be very cagey with the facts, and when you play "hide the ball" you're only going to get an answer based upon the information you provide. There are plenty of contexts in which somebody, never charged with a crime, can be banned from an apartment community. There has been some controversy and litigation over rules in public housing communities, enforced by the police, that result in trespass bans for loitering and suspicious behavior even in the absence of any documented criminal activity. The facts matter.

As you're not willing to share the full facts, you can suggest that the tenants retain a lawyer, share the full facts, and get advised accordingly.

[TekWiz]

You seem to really want to say I'm hiding facts but I'm not, I'm being as accurate as I can. This is not a public housing community, it's a co-op/rental building managed by a private real-estate company and the building also has a co-op board. The tenant was evicted over a shoddy apartment conditions and rent payment dispute which was going on for a while and the landlord managed to trick the tenant by probably removing the eviction notice. In other words it wasn't going that great for the landlord and it was hard to evict the tenant. The property manager hated the tenant due to all this.

However this is not relevant to the question as I keep saying. The question is simple. Can a property manager in a co-op building in NYC disallow a person who has been evicted from entering a friend/neighbor's apartment by claiming trespass? As I said a housing specialist said they have no right to do that and based on information I mentioned in my previous post it seems that they don't have the authority.

cdwjava: Well no there was no order relating to the building itself, the eviction was strictly just from the apartment. In one way it's an academic exercise but it's also an actual case.

- - - Updated - - -

More details: The person was initially told by the policemen that "you cannot go back into your apartment and you cannot loiter in the building but you can go visit a friend if she wants you there." They were reading from protocol. The friend said yes, which is why the super accompanied her to the friend's apartment. Then a few minutes later the policemen broke down the door (yes actually broke the lock) stormed in shouting and dragged her out of the apartment like it was a drug bust. One possible explanation is that the property manager told them this was the apartment she was evicted from! But still they should have knocked on the door like human beings and discussed this calmly. It's a clear case of police brutality but this is not relevant to the question. Apparently in Washington and California the law is clear, anybody has a right to visit a friend in a building complex even if they were formerly evicted from another apartment in that complex. Also based on what the police read in New York, it seems this is also the law but that's what I'm trying to figure out. I couldn't find a specific law on this.

[Mr. Knowitall]

You seem to really want to say I'm hiding facts but I'm not, I'm being as accurate as I can.

If you aren't hiding the facts, you don't know the facts. If you don't know the facts, you aren't in a position to provide the facts.

If the tenant cares about what happened, have the tenant share the facts.

If the person barred from the premises cares about what happened, have that person share the facts.

If neither care, then nothing is going to change.

[TekWiz]

If you aren't hiding the facts, you don't know the facts. If you don't know the facts, you aren't in a position to provide the facts.

If the tenant cares about what happened, have the tenant share the facts.

If the person barred from the premises cares about what happened, have that person share the facts.

If neither care, then nothing is going to change.

Well I'm surprised at your answer, Mr. KnowItAll, since as I explained a few times these are the most accurate facts and they have nothing practical to do with the question. Additionally we are not a jury here and this is not a court of law. The exact details of a particular case are just not necessary in order to answer a question about the law. Obviously you simply don't know the law and are unable to answer the question. Maybe someone who knows the law can answer it. The question is simply: "Can a property manager prevent someone who has not committed any hostile or disturbing act enter a neighbor's apartment in New York?" The answer in many other states is no, they can't, and based on what the police in NY said this also seems to be the case in NY.

In fact from the point of view of common sense and what would be best for New York, it would be in the interest of the city that if someone gets evicted from their apartment they don't end up on the street but are able to stay with a friend or family member. When you are evicted it's from the apartment, not the building. So a property manager would need to go to court and present some evidence that the person poses some danger to the property.

Additionally I just thought of another scenario. Say you had possession of two apartments in the building but got evicted only from one of them. The property manager would not have a right to stop you from going to your other apartment unless he could prove in court that you were doing something illegal.

So the most likely explanation is that the property manager must have made up some other story, (like the person has gone back into the apartment they were evicted from) in order to get the police to act this way (maybe even gave them a bribe to do it violently, or one of the officers was a particularly violent man.) In fact, the person said that as they were doing this, the property manager was standing in the hallway smiling and was saying "thank you!" As we know, it's not uncommon for police to act violently...

[Dogmatique]

Landlord files for a restraining order and wants the person restrained from all of the landlord's property. That's a very simple, very cheap, and very legal way of accomplishing what he wants.

[TekWiz]

Landlord files for a restraining order and wants the person restrained from all of the landlord's property. That's a very simple, very cheap, and very legal way of accomplishing what he wants.

This has nothing to do with my question about trespassing when it comes to visiting a neighbor in an apartment building after being evicted from an apartment. Anyway regarding the restraining order idea:

Sure if the person is dangerous in some way. That has to be proven in court. In an apartment building people own rights to their apartments and that includes the right to invite guest or whomever they like as long as these people people don't cause a nuisance or damage to the property. Just because some property manager dislikes someone for personal reasons doesn't give them the right to ban them from the building.

Here is what you are talking about in New York law: http://www.nycourts.gov/faq/orderofprotection.shtml

What is an order of protection?

An order of protection is issued by the court to limit the behavior of someone who harms or threatens to harm another person. It is used to address various types of safety issues, including, but not limited to situations involving domestic violence. Family Courts, criminal courts, and Supreme Courts can all issue orders of protection. For information and hotline numbers for addressing situations involving domestic violence, see below.

An order of protection may direct the offending person not to injure, threaten or harass you, your family, or any other person(s) listed in the order. It may include, but is not limited to, directing him/her to:

stay away from you and your children
move out of your home
follow custody orders
pay child support
not have a gun

[Dogmatique]

This has nothing to do with my question about trespassing when it comes to visiting a neighbor in an apartment building after being evicted from an apartment. Anyway regarding the restraining order idea:

Sure if the person is dangerous in some way. That has to be proven in court. In an apartment building people own rights to their apartments and that includes the right to invite guest or whomever they like as long as these people people don't cause a nuisance or damage to the property. Just because some property manager dislikes someone for personal reasons doesn't give them the right to ban them from the building.

Here is what you are talking about in New York law: http://www.nycourts.gov/faq/orderofprotection.shtml

What is an order of protection?

An order of protection is issued by the court to limit the behavior of someone who harms or threatens to harm another person. It is used to address various types of safety issues, including, but not limited to situations involving domestic violence. Family Courts, criminal courts, and Supreme Courts can all issue orders of protection. For information and hotline numbers for addressing situations involving domestic violence, see below.

An order of protection may direct the offending person not to injure, threaten or harass you, your family, or any other person(s) listed in the order. It may include, but is not limited to, directing him/her to:

stay away from you and your children
move out of your home
follow custody orders
pay child support
not have a gun

Trespassing might just fall under "harassment", non?

The point was, there are legal ways for a landlord to make life rather difficult for the ex-tenant. If you'd prefer to believe otherwise, that's of course your prerogative.


Note too that "legal" by no means equates to "fair".

[cdwjava]

cdwjava: Well no there was no order relating to the building itself, the eviction was strictly just from the apartment. In one way it's an academic exercise but it's also an actual case.

Have you personally read the order? Out here the language almost always includes an order to remain off the property - not simply to vacate the apartment.

And, again, what's the goal here? Whom do you want to sue?