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  1. #1
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    Mar 2014
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    Default Failure to Stop at the Limit Line for a Red Light, VC 21453(A)

    My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: CA

    When I was making a right turn from a freeway exit and the city of Eastvale, a CHP pulled me over. He told me that he was driving on the freeway and heard people honking, so he decided to come over and take a look. He said that I was stopping out of the limit line and gave me a ticket.

    I honestly didn't know that he would give me a ticket until he went back to the van and it took him a long time to come back. I was not very sure that if the cars passing by were honking on me. I don't know if and why I stopped outside of the line. I explained that I might be stopping because the light was turning red. I don't feel it is very fair to give me a ticket. I could have gotten away with a ticket by really "running" the red light. I am not sure if the fact that it was raining can help me explain why the car didn't brake before the limit line? I am going to fight for this ticket for sure. Do you guys have any suggestions on fighting this?

    PS. This is my first ticket.


  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
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    OH10
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    Default Re: VC 21453 (A) Red Light-Stop at Limit Line

    You admit you do not even know if you are innocent or guilty. Unless you were planning on compounding the problem by going to court and claiming you were driving to fast for conditions, I suggest you consider traffic school.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: VC 21453 (A) Red Light-Stop at Limit Line

    Quote Quoting shiningkey
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    He said that I was stopping out of the limit line and gave me a ticket.
    What code section did he cite you for?

    Quote Quoting shiningkey
    View Post
    PS. This is my first ticket.
    PS: Congratulations!

  4. #4
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    Default Re: VC 21453 (A) Red Light-Stop at Limit Line

    Quote Quoting That Guy
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    What code section did he cite you for?
    VC 21453(a).

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Failure to Stop at the Limit Line for a Red Light, VC 21453(A)

    Quote Quoting Mr. Knowitall
    View Post
    Aaahh, yes, there is it... The disappearing code section #.

    Thank you. I was actually wondering if the OP had been cited for CVC 21970 blocking the crosswalk or similar... But its not. Which makes this strange one.

    For a number of reasons... One of them being that your story isn't the least bit clear.

    Because if the officer did not see you pull up to the light and possibly roll through over the line and THEN stop, then I am not sure sure he can cite 21453(a), however, there is always the possibility that you admitted not stopping until after you passed the line

    Quote Quoting shiningkey
    View Post
    I am going to fight for this ticket for sure. Do you guys have any suggestions on fighting this?
    So you know you are going to fight it for sure... But you have no idea how you're going to fight it?

    Without knowing what you said to him, I'm not so sure there is anything anyone can do to help.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
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    244

    Default Re: Failure to Stop at the Limit Line for a Red Light, VC 21453(A)

    when pulled over the cop is going to give you some type of ticket ... best lips shut and save your argument for court.

    you can still take it to a hearing .. it may depend on what the cop says ... if the cop states that you admitted to the violation you will have a hard time getting over a guilty verdict

    never talk to cops ... you may have learned the most valuable lesson for low cost

    you will never ever talk your way out of a ticket

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
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    6

    Default Re: VC 21453 (A) Red Light-Stop at Limit Line

    When I stopped and he came over. He said something that I was blocking the traffic, and asked if I have heard the honkings. I admitted that I heard them. (I was not admitting that I caused the honkings or blocked the traffic, right? ) He said something like I could have done this or that (too nervous, don't remember). Then he asked for my license and registration, and walked back to his van. Of course, he came back with the ticket. I did explain something like I guess it was yellow light and I decided to stop instead of going forward and I asked him to give me a break (obviously too late). I am pretty sure he didn't see the motion since he explained how he came over.

    I was thinking of giving scenarios like what one could do between actually "run the red light" or stop. I think I made a better decision but the weather was not helping...

    Any suggestions would be highly appreciated!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Quoting That Guy
    View Post
    What code section did he cite you for?



    PS: Congratulations!
    Thank you for that...

  8. #8
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    Default Re: VC 21453 (A) Red Light-Stop at Limit Line

    Quote Quoting shiningkey
    View Post
    When I stopped and he came over. He said something that I was blocking the traffic, and asked if I have heard the honkings. I admitted that I heard them. (I was not admitting that I caused the honkings or blocked the traffic, right? ) He said something like I could have done this or that (too nervous, don't remember). Then he asked for my license and registration, and walked back to his van. Of course, he came back with the ticket. I did explain something like I guess it was yellow light and I decided to stop instead of going forward and I asked him to give me a break (obviously too late). I am pretty sure he didn't see the motion since he explained how he came over.

    I was thinking of giving scenarios like what one could do between actually "run the red light" or stop. I think I made a better decision but the weather was not helping...

    Any suggestions would be highly appreciated!

    - - - Updated - - -



    Thank you for that...
    Here is the code section

    CVC 21453

    (a) A driver facing a steady circular red signal alone shall stop at a marked limit line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an indication to proceed is shown, except as provided in subdivision (b).

    (b) Except when a sign is in place prohibiting a turn, a driver, after stopping as required by subdivision (a), facing a steady circular red signal, may turn right, or turn left from a one-way street onto a one-way street. A driver making that turn shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within an adjacent crosswalk and to any vehicle that has approached or is approaching so closely as to constitute an immediate hazard to the driver, and shall continue to yield the right-of-way to that vehicle until the driver can proceed with reasonable safety.

    And here is my guess as to how he will likely try to make his case... You are required by law to stop at or just short of the line, meaning stay out of the crosswalk... It also requires you to "remain stopped" as in stay outside of the crosswalk with two exceptions: (1) until you get an indication to proceed, meaning your light turns green, OR (2) until you have yielded the right of way to cross traffic as well as to pedestrians in the crosswalk to your right. If you can make the case for either exception then you should be in the clear, however, the fact that people were honking at you, I assume was because -not only did you not stop before the crosswalk, not only did you go over the crosswalk, but you also were stopped with your front end into the intersection.

    IN other words, his case centers around the fact that you did not stop as required under the code and instead, kept going until you found yourself well into the intersection and in the way of cross traffic.

    Now, question is.. Did he see you in that position? With your front end hanging into the intersection and people trying to get around you?

    He did say, based on your description:

    Quote Quoting shiningkey
    View Post
    When I stopped and he came over. He said something that I was blocking the traffic, and asked if I have heard the honkings.
    So the safe assumption is that he did see you.... Obviously, if he didn't see you the expectation is that if he did not see you, he would not have cited you. And to assume otherwise would be wishful thinking...

    But to add to that, he actually could have cited you for two more violations... (a) assuming he did see you blockjing the crosswalk, he could have cited you for blocking the corsswalk (CVC 21970), and (b) the fact that you were getting honked at might also imply that you were gridlocking the intersection, as in impeding the flow of traffic approaching from your left and he could have cited you for (CVC 22526).

    Of course a counter argument can be made that the 21453 violation encompasses both the others I just mentioned... And in reality the chances that this point will come up is extremely slim. The point I am trying to make is that you are under the impression that it will be easy to beat the one violation, it won't... If he was unsure about anything he would not have cited you... At least I do not think so.

    Quote Quoting shiningkey
    View Post
    I was thinking of giving scenarios like what one could do between actually "run the red light" or stop. I think I made a better decision but the weather was not helping....

    Bad plan, and here is why... First you are admitting to committing the violation, and regardless of how strong his case or weak your case is, you don't want to hand him the win. But more importantly, you make it sound as if running the red light was an option but you did everyone a favor by choosing to stop. Fact is, you did not have the option to run the light, or at least you should not have placed yourself in the position where it was either/or...
    Let me clarify some basic facts about your options and I will obviously let you make the decision.

    I am not sure if you have received a courtesy notice from the court yet, which confirms your last date to respond to the citation by either (1) requesting a court date, (2) by paying the fine and taking traffic school, or (3) just paying the fine by itself (as in pleading guilty).

    The problem with fighting a 21453 when you have a very weak case or no case at all, is that after being found guilty by the judge, the conviction carries a statutory fine (see CVC 42001.15, and keep in mind that the $100 mentioned there is the base fine, which after adding the other statutory penalties and assessments, it comes out at $490), which means it cannot be reduced. At $490 for he fine, I think you might want to try and get the fine lowered and you might get some sort of break if you appear in court for the arraignment, plead guilty (choose option (1)) and see if the judge will reduce it. I cannot guarantee he will and if he does, I cannot say by how much...

    In addition, and since you have not been to traffic school in the 18 month period before getting cited for this one, you will most likely qualify for traffic school and upon completion of the class and submitting the completion certificate in a timely manner (usually the school itself will submit it for you)... Then the conviction will be concealed meaning your insurance company will not see it. If you decide to fight it, and happen to lose, then traffic school is no longer your option, instead, it becomes a discretionary matter for the judge to decide... Some judges allow it, others may not.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    6

    Default Re: VC 21453 (A) Red Light-Stop at Limit Line

    I haven't received the notice yet. On the ticket, it shows that he used MVARS. I remember passing a police van parked at the shoulder of the freeway, about 1-2 miles from the exit. Most likely, if he exited after hearing the honkings, he would have been a few cars away behind me. I don't think it's possible for his vehicle to be directly behind me. How would he have known when I moved out of the line, it was a right light?

    Also, I know this might not be an argue point. If someone parks completely within the line, it is not possible to see the traffic coming from the left with the blocking of the vehicle parked on your left side. I don't know if this has something to do with the angle of the road. It is not flat.

    If I plead guilty before court hearing, is it possible to get the fine reduced and get into traffic school? If the judge doesn't want to reduce my fine, is it still ok for me to plead not guilty?

    Quote Quoting That Guy
    View Post
    Here is the code section

    CVC 21453

    (a) A driver facing a steady circular red signal alone shall stop at a marked limit line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an indication to proceed is shown, except as provided in subdivision (b).

    (b) Except when a sign is in place prohibiting a turn, a driver, after stopping as required by subdivision (a), facing a steady circular red signal, may turn right, or turn left from a one-way street onto a one-way street. A driver making that turn shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within an adjacent crosswalk and to any vehicle that has approached or is approaching so closely as to constitute an immediate hazard to the driver, and shall continue to yield the right-of-way to that vehicle until the driver can proceed with reasonable safety.

    And here is my guess as to how he will likely try to make his case... You are required by law to stop at or just short of the line, meaning stay out of the crosswalk... It also requires you to "remain stopped" as in stay outside of the crosswalk with two exceptions: (1) until you get an indication to proceed, meaning your light turns green, OR (2) until you have yielded the right of way to cross traffic as well as to pedestrians in the crosswalk to your right. If you can make the case for either exception then you should be in the clear, however, the fact that people were honking at you, I assume was because -not only did you not stop before the crosswalk, not only did you go over the crosswalk, but you also were stopped with your front end into the intersection.

    IN other words, his case centers around the fact that you did not stop as required under the code and instead, kept going until you found yourself well into the intersection and in the way of cross traffic.

    Now, question is.. Did he see you in that position? With your front end hanging into the intersection and people trying to get around you?

    He did say, based on your description:



    So the safe assumption is that he did see you.... Obviously, if he didn't see you the expectation is that if he did not see you, he would not have cited you. And to assume otherwise would be wishful thinking...

    But to add to that, he actually could have cited you for two more violations... (a) assuming he did see you blockjing the crosswalk, he could have cited you for blocking the corsswalk (CVC 21970), and (b) the fact that you were getting honked at might also imply that you were gridlocking the intersection, as in impeding the flow of traffic approaching from your left and he could have cited you for (CVC 22526).

    Of course a counter argument can be made that the 21453 violation encompasses both the others I just mentioned... And in reality the chances that this point will come up is extremely slim. The point I am trying to make is that you are under the impression that it will be easy to beat the one violation, it won't... If he was unsure about anything he would not have cited you... At least I do not think so.




    Bad plan, and here is why... First you are admitting to committing the violation, and regardless of how strong his case or weak your case is, you don't want to hand him the win. But more importantly, you make it sound as if running the red light was an option but you did everyone a favor by choosing to stop. Fact is, you did not have the option to run the light, or at least you should not have placed yourself in the position where it was either/or...
    Let me clarify some basic facts about your options and I will obviously let you make the decision.

    I am not sure if you have received a courtesy notice from the court yet, which confirms your last date to respond to the citation by either (1) requesting a court date, (2) by paying the fine and taking traffic school, or (3) just paying the fine by itself (as in pleading guilty).

    The problem with fighting a 21453 when you have a very weak case or no case at all, is that after being found guilty by the judge, the conviction carries a statutory fine (see CVC 42001.15, and keep in mind that the $100 mentioned there is the base fine, which after adding the other statutory penalties and assessments, it comes out at $490), which means it cannot be reduced. At $490 for he fine, I think you might want to try and get the fine lowered and you might get some sort of break if you appear in court for the arraignment, plead guilty (choose option (1)) and see if the judge will reduce it. I cannot guarantee he will and if he does, I cannot say by how much...

    In addition, and since you have not been to traffic school in the 18 month period before getting cited for this one, you will most likely qualify for traffic school and upon completion of the class and submitting the completion certificate in a timely manner (usually the school itself will submit it for you)... Then the conviction will be concealed meaning your insurance company will not see it. If you decide to fight it, and happen to lose, then traffic school is no longer your option, instead, it becomes a discretionary matter for the judge to decide... Some judges allow it, others may not.

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