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  1. #1
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    Feb 2014
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    Exclamation Can You Discharge Medical Subrogation Insurance Liens in Bankruptcy

    My question involves bankruptcy in the state of: CA

    On 8/29/09, I was involved in auto vehicle accident (rear ended at a stop sign). I ended up with 3 herniated disks, two in my cervical, 1 in lumbar, and to date am suffering and due to have back surgery next month. My insurance at time United health care paid for ambulance, ER visit and 5 physical therapy sessions. My attorney reached a settlement 8/2011 for $50k, and paid me 3/4 of settlement (after attorney fees and all). I inquired for 3 months Regarding the remaining amount approx 12k of settlement, and he said that my former employer and Ingenix placed a lien and he will send me the check WITH their name on it, and there was nothing else he could do for me. He also said the lien was for $43k! I am filing BK due to enormous amount of medical bills ( I ultimately lost my job with my employer on 1/21 as Sedgewick would not release me back to work and I exhausted my leave of absence). I filed for SSDI, on my own and was successful 1st time around, but am on limited income. I personally have never received ANY letters from Ingenix/united health care, my attorney was the only one to advise me of this.

    My question is, can I include them in my BK? What happens to the check he is sending to me with both my name and Ingenix name on it? I feel my attorney did not represent me we'll ...

    Thanks in Advance,

    Moni

  2. #2
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    Sep 2011
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    Default Re: Ca- Can I Discharge Medical Subrogation Insurance Lien in Bankruptcy (Ingenix)

    If you want to go to prison for fraud sure. You were reimbursed for a great part of those expenses. You then elected to not pay them.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Can You Discharge Medical Subrogation Insurance Liens in Bankruptcy

    While a medical debt would ordinarily be dischargeable, based on what you have told us this is not an ordinary circumstance. You have the money to pay at least part of your medical debt in the form of a joint check. You have told us that your medical creditors have a lien against the settlement that funds that joint check. Given your description of events, it's questionable whether a court would find that the money is actually part of the bankrupt estate, and you can anticipate having to pay a lawyer to fight the issue out in court if you attempt to avoid turning the funds over to the medical creditor. I am not sure that you fully understand the facts, though, as if they had a valid lien against the settlement and no negotiated settlement was reached, I would expect them to be pursuing all of the money.

    Did your lawyer negotiate the $43,000 medical debt down to $12,000?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
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    5

    Default Re: Can You Discharge Medical Subrogation Insurance Liens in Bankruptcy

    My medical fees totaled approximately $15,000, so I don't even know how Ingenix is coming up with a $43,000 figure. Do I contact them for a break down of these fees??? My settlement was mostly for pain and suffering, and I have used my funds to pay for pain management and epidural injections. I don't even have enough to pay for my back surgery..the other medical bills that have accumulated were from the death of my 18 year old son. The driver who killed him was uninsured and no assets. I don't understand how I had paid for medical insurance premiums for 15 years with no claims, and had a no fault injury which awarded me pain and suffering, which is supposed to help me pay my future medical bills for the damage done. Something does not seem right. I also don't understand why my attorney would not help me deal with this issue. He collected his fee and was done with me. Why did they not go after the at fault parties insurance?

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Can You Discharge Medical Subrogation Insurance Liens in Bankruptcy

    So the insurance paid about $12k. Did your employer provide you with disability payments in addition to this?

  6. #6
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    Feb 2014
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    5

    Default Re: Can You Discharge Medical Subrogation Insurance Liens in Bankruptcy

    No they did not.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Can You Discharge Medical Subrogation Insurance Liens in Bankruptcy

    I would request they substantiate the charges they claim are due. You cannot pay a medical bill that is not correct.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    5

    Angry Re: Can You Discharge Medical Subrogation Insurance Liens in Bankruptcy

    So I went through my old files, and I found a letter from Ingenix to me detailing medical visits within the first few months of the accident ( of course some of their claims for compensation had nothing to do with the accident I.e. Migraines (which I have suffered for years and have been treated for many times prior to the accident). What is interesting is the letter was dated 1/13/13, 4 months AFTER my settlement. What happened in my case, was my attorney sat on his behind for 2 years ( accident occurred 8/27/09). He knew the 2 year clock was ticking on either deposition or trial, and he felt that we should not go to trial, and the deposition took place just under the wire on 8/20/2012. Only 1 month prior to that did he tell me to gather all of my medical bills from 2 years ago, so I went back to the hospital and got a print out...At the deposition he told me me he would be surprised if "the other parties insurance company would pay me". Well, the very next day, I get a call, and they want to settle for their "max" which was $50k. So I show up at his office 3 days later, and he hurriedly had me sign a " release form for the check". I just now reviewed that form, and there it is, approx $16 k (more than I thought) being held in a trust for potential lien. My attorney rao
    epresenteld to me that I would be receiving the full amount for pain and suffering, and all future medical (which is anothing, but he didn't want to go to trial), AND that ALL my medical expenses would be paid. Did he have prior knowledge that Ingenix was seeking over $40k in reimbursement, and then turn around and have me sign a release apse basically waiving my rights to come after anyone seeking all medical be paid after that was represented to me? I feel like there was no full disclosure, and was there to sign to get my check... do I have any remedies or do I tackle Ingenix on my own? Thank you all again for your direction... I just feel something is fishy and I should have known about Ingenix, or my attorney should have pre-negotiated or reduced their bill substantially

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Can You Discharge Medical Subrogation Insurance Liens in Bankruptcy

    This is normally the way it works out. Your attorney should have negotiated the medical down. You only hold the cards before you sign for the check. Make the medical take less, make the lawyer take less and leave you something in the middle. You can do nothing with the check until you and they come to a mutual agreement and endorse the check. They will likely settle for what you have left, the 75% of the $50k with no problem.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    5

    Exclamation Re: Can You Discharge Medical Subrogation Insurance Liens in Bankruptcy

    Thank you for that information! So today in the mail, I recieved the check, and my attorney wrote the check from his trust account out to me and my previous employer! Not Ingenix...so now do I negotiate with my former employer ( who happens to be an extremely large telecommunications company)? They have so many 800 #s I don't know where to begin! I was with the company for many many years and know a lot of big Whigs, but don't think that will help much in my case...sigh...oh yea and My attorney collected his fees when I recieved the majority of my settlement because he is just such a smart attorney and of course although he knew in advance what they were trying to charge, he never tried to negotiate down the medical bills...

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