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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
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    7

    Default Re: Water Damage Caused to Down Stair Unit Due to Freeze Damage

    i am looking at my policy dec page- i have limit of liability at $10k for personal property and under Peril insured against it states "Broad form". What does this mean?

    also have section that mentions following under landlord's premises liability
    Coverage L-Liab. BI+PD combined single limit each occur. $500k (is that Bodily injury and property damage).. shouldn't that cover it?
    also have another line that states following
    Unit-Owners/building items coverage
    amount of liability is $1k

    then under Perils insured against i have section that states following;

    Freezing of plumbing, heating, air conditioning or automatic fire protection sprinkler system or of a household appliance are covered. why would they have this in my policy if it wouldn't cover the damages?

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    38,867

    Default Re: Water Damage Caused to Down Stair Unit Due to Freeze Damage

    I'm going to let adjusterjack answer those questions. That was his line of work and I would have to search for answers and give a best interpretation even after that,

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Behind a Desk
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    98,846

    Default Re: Water Damage Caused to Down Stair Unit Due to Freeze Damage

    Quote Quoting aka95001
    View Post
    "the tenant left the unit and she left the heat at 45-55 per my verbal communication, she was gone for two days.. the temperature has been really low in the past few days.. "
    what i meant to state was
    "the tenant told me she left the unit and the heat was set 45-55, the communication was after the damage, she was gone for two days.. the temperature has been really low in the past few days.. " this was to understand why the unit had damage.. i wouldn't tell her to set the heat at that temperature when my house is always set at 62 when we leave
    So perhaps the actual story is that you told her to turn the heat way down before leaving, but didn't give her a temperature point so she turned it down lower than you had intended?
    Quote Quoting adjusterjack
    View Post
    Sorry, no offense, but you appear to know little or nothing about negligence law or insurance and I spent 35 years at it.
    mihamih is correct that it is possible for the unintended consequences of an intentional act to support a finding of negligence, even though the act itself was intentional. At the same time, the fact that an injury is not intended to result from an intentional act does not necessarily mean that the injury won't be covered by the principle of transferred intent (e.g, I throw something at you, you duck and I hit somebody else with the object - the fact that I didn't intend to injure the third party while assaulting you won't transform my intentional act into a negligent act). What argument might be plausible in this case will depend on facts not known to us at this point in time, along with the policy language, and I share your disinterest in writing an exposition on the subject. If, however, the OP told the insurance company that the tenant who turned down the temperature was acting on his instruction, I don't think they'll be sympathetic to the amendment of that admission into "What I meant was that the tenant did this on her own initiative and told me only after it was too late to prevent the damage."

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    18,340

    Default Re: Water Damage Caused to Down Stair Unit Due to Freeze Damage

    Quote Quoting aka95001
    View Post
    i am looking at my policy dec page- i have limit of liability at $10k for personal property and under Peril insured against it states "Broad form". What does this mean?
    I'll assume for the moment that you have some sort of landlord's policy that combines property and liability insurance. In that context, "Broad Form" should be a mid-range of coverage for your property. A "Standard Form" would have a limited list of covered perils (causes of damage or loss), a "Broad Form" has a longer list of perils, a "Special Form" generally does not list perils specifically but covers every type of damage or loss to your property unless specifically excluded.

    Quote Quoting aka95001
    View Post
    also have section that mentions following under landlord's premises liability
    Coverage L-Liab. BI+PD combined single limit each occur. $500k (is that Bodily injury and property damage).. shouldn't that cover it?
    That would cover damage to the property of other people if your negligence caused the damage. In your policy, your insurance agrees to pay if you are responsible due to negligence and agrees to defend you if you were not negligent.

    In this case, your insurance company has denied the claim for damage to the downstairs unit because it believes (as I do) that you were not negligent. Should you be sued for the damage to the other unit your insurance company will hire a lawyer to act on your behalf.

    Quote Quoting aka95001
    View Post
    Unit-Owners/building items coverage amount of liability is $1k
    That's the coverage for damage to the structural components of your unit. Read your CC&Rs for the definition and you'll understand that $1k is not nearly enough to cover potential structural damage to your unit elements.

    Quote Quoting aka95001
    View Post
    Freezing of plumbing, heating, air conditioning or automatic fire protection sprinkler system or of a household appliance are covered. why would they have this in my policy if it wouldn't cover the damages?
    That is part of the coverage for your property: your unit and any personal property that belongs to you. It does not cover the property of anybody else.

    The HOA people typically tell an owner that he or she is responsible for any damage to anybody, in the hopes that the owner doesn't do his or her homework.

    That's why I suggested you read your CC&Rs carefully to see if you have any contractual obligation for damage to anybody simply by virtue of you owning the unit.

    Without reading your Landlord's Liability coverage part I can't give you an opinion on whether a contractual obligation might be covered or not. If you can find the exclusion or limitations on contractual liability and quote it word for word, I'll be able to comment on it.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    7

    Default Re: Water Damage Caused to Down Stair Unit Due to Freeze Damage

    Thanks adjusterjack.. to your point of $1k, i understand.. Really don't everyone to feel like i am blaming others; however i was sold insurance from agent expecting i was protected in cases like these.. He claims based on my conversation I should be covered and he does this for a living, he has many of my policies.. this is not my profession and i wonder hoe many other folks have similar issues.. and what happens is when you get into these position you start educating your self due to the situation..
    Don't know how to quote like you, adjuster jack you mentioned following
    "That would cover damage to the property of other people if your negligence caused the damage. In your policy, your insurance agrees to pay if you are responsible due to negligence and agrees to defend you if you were not negligent.

    In this case, your insurance company has denied the claim for damage to the downstairs unit because it believes (as I do) that you were not negligent. Should you be sued for the damage to the other unit your insurance company will hire a lawyer to act on your behalf."

    based on above the association is holding me responsible due to negligent therefore wont cover repair of my unit and also requires $10k deductible. They mentioned if it was no =t negligent they would have covered repair of my unit. if my insurance company has throw their hands up in the air and claims they wont cover me.. how do i have them fight the association claim?
    I hear this from everyone that it is difficult for insurance companies to pay when it comes in time of crises..
    We are getting bylaws and will be reading through them to understand where we are responsible.
    also my association/their insurance company is requesting electric bill, why would they request for the electric bill?

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    38,867

    Default Re: Water Damage Caused to Down Stair Unit Due to Freeze Damage

    The only thing I can imagine with the electric bill is to determine whether you actually had electric service on the dates the damages occurred. Other than that it makes no sense to me. It's not like they are going to be able to determine what temp the unit was at at the time of the damage.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
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    18,340

    Default Re: Water Damage Caused to Down Stair Unit Due to Freeze Damage

    Quote Quoting aka95001
    View Post
    based on above the association is holding me responsible due to negligent therefore wont cover repair of my unit and also requires $10k deductible.
    The people who run the HOA can "allege" anything they want. But, until they can prove it in court, you don't have to give them a nickel.

    And they wouldn't be obligated to cover repair of your "unit" because it's your "unit" and not part of the common elements.

    The HOA's $10,000 deductible has nothing to do with you. The HOA's policy covers damage to common elements. You have no obligation to repair common elements (unless the CC&Rs say so and we don't know that yet).

    Quote Quoting aka95001
    View Post
    They mentioned if it was not negligent they would have covered repair of my unit.
    Again, they will tell you the moon is made of green cheese in the hopes that you buy the story. Frankly, I don't they have any clue as to what they are talking about. They might not even understand the difference between "unit" and common elements.

    Quote Quoting aka95001
    View Post
    if my insurance company has throw their hands up in the air and claims they wont cover me
    That isn't what your insurance company did. Your insurance company took the first step in defending you against an allegation of negligence by determining that you weren't negligent and denying the claim.

    Quote Quoting aka95001
    View Post
    how do i have them fight the association claim?
    They're already fighting it by denying the claim. The next step in the fight doesn't occur until you've been served with legal papers. Then the insurance company hires a lawyer to defend you.

    Quote Quoting aka95001
    View Post
    I hear this from everyone that it is difficult for insurance companies to pay when it comes in time of crises..
    I hear that a lot, too. Generally, it's from people who didn't buy the right coverage and don't understand the coverage they did buy.

    Quote Quoting aka95001
    View Post
    We are getting bylaws and will be reading through them to understand where we are responsible.
    Careful. There's a difference between "bylaws" and CC&Rs (Covenants, Conditions & Restriction). Make sure you read both. The CC&Rs are what counts because that's a legal contract that you agreed to by virtue of buying the condo.

    Quote Quoting aka95001
    View Post
    also my association/their insurance company is requesting electric bill, why would they request for the electric bill?
    As JK points out, might be to confirm that the electric was on in the unit. Otherwise I have no idea. Personally, though, I would consider those people my enemy and not give them squat. But that's just me. You can give them a copy if you want to.

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    179

    Default Re: Water Damage Caused to Down Stair Unit Due to Freeze Damage

    I'd be careful about considering my condo association my enemy. It is sad that many ppl take this approach. Figure out how many units your condo association has. Take $10,000 in question. Divide by number of units. This is what YOU personally paid towards this damage if the COA covered it. It is exactly this simple. Hate your COA, you hate yourself.

    On the other hand, you paid for insurance, something happened and you get ZERO. I'd beg the COA to sue me in this case. I just want to see how fast the insurance company will cave in and cover. All I hear is how such and such insurance didn't want to cover and then later covered. Particularly when it comes to health insurance. So while I can see that an adjuster is biased towards the insurance company point of view, I'm giving you that of the COA point of view.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    7

    Default Re: Water Damage Caused to Down Stair Unit Due to Freeze Damage

    i am getting lot of feedback with multiple directions, and appreciate your guys can feel the situation i am in.. This is taking lot of my time without much progress.. Take this... my wife called the insurance agent.. after he has many of my policies he tells my wife we should do our due diligence and can not support our cause.. so to get back on track..
    how do i go about getting RIGHT legal support? i have long time attorney (someone i can trust) and he keeps stating to have each insurnace companies reference the document that states i am not covered and provide a letter to that effect (from the association and my insurance). He believes insurance policies are black or white, either your covered or your not.. However my past relationships with him has been on buy and selling a house.. not sure how much experiece he has with insurance claims.
    So how do i go about find right legal support? Dont want keep digging my hole..

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    179

    Default Re: Water Damage Caused to Down Stair Unit Due to Freeze Damage

    I'd get a different agent after this....

    If you have an attorney you can trust, go with him. There are too many attorneys that don't know anything and will just take your money and do nothing for you. Read jk's signature on some of the posts. What your attorney is asking is very reasonable. Push both association and your insurance to provide you with such a letter. You are looking for a 2 day solution to this problem that says you don't have to pay but you won't find one. This will likely drag on for a while.

    Also not sure if you have told the association that you/your tenant turned down the heat to 20/30 degrees lower than normal when it was going to be -20 outside. If you have not done so and you want to tip the scale to your insurance paying, you may want to bring this to condo association's attention. Also if you are looking for a quick solution, call up your insurance only and tell them the same. Are they still claiming you are not liable knowing this?

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