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  1. #1
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    Default Entering a Bike Lane More than 200 Feet Before the Turn

    My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: california



    a police officer gave me a ticket for entering the bike lane for a right turn prior to 200 feet. the image above shows where i entered in the lane. i technically did enter the lane in prior to 200 feet. i asked the police officer where i was supposed to enter the lane and she said i have to cross the two white lanes where the bike lane is labeled. i was cited for CVC 21209A.

    two issues:
    1) since that bike lane is 230 feet, i could follow her directions and STILL violate the law (measured using satellite imagery)
    2) i'm pretty sure that you're not supposed to cross two white lanes, there is usually a dashed line to indicate you are allowed to pass

    in this case, there is no dashed line, just that single line before the bike lane starts. the law is supposed to prevent people from driving all the way from the back to the front using that lane which i wasnt doing. i only entered the lane once that turn shoulder opened up which seems like the logical and acceptable place to enter into the turn lane.

    i have a court date set for next month. any advice on how i should present my case or if i even have a case? i cant take traffic school because i already used that option for something earlier. i can't really afford the insurance hike so this is really important for me. thank you very much in advance for your help!

    -d

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Entering Bike Lane Before 200 for Right Turn but with Shoulder Opened

    Quote Quoting dtch
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    i technically did enter the lane in prior to 200 feet.
    OK... So it boils down to ^^this^^!

    Quote Quoting dtch
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    1) since that bike lane is 230 feet, i could follow her directions and STILL violate the law (measured using satellite imagery)
    OK, so the next time you need to make that turn, make sure you drive past the arrow symbol before entering, and make sure there are no bicyclist there. What the officer said does not change the fact tat you entered the bike lane long before 200 feet, and long before 230 feet.

    Quote Quoting dtch
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    2) i'm pretty sure that you're not supposed to cross two white lanes, there is usually a dashed line to indicate you are allowed to pass
    For one, you are not crossing two solid white lines such as those that are used to split HOV lane from other lanes on a freeway, nor are you crossing two solid lines that eventually make a gore point, you are crossing a bike lane. And two, you are doing so because the law allows you to do so...

    21209

    (a) No person shall drive a motor vehicle in a bicycle lane established on a roadway pursuant to Section 21207 except as follows:

    (1) To park where parking is permitted.

    (2) To enter or leave the roadway.

    (3) To prepare for a turn within a distance of 200 feet from the intersection.

    (b) This section does not prohibit the use of a motorized bicycle in a bicycle lane, pursuant to Section 21207.5, at a speed no greater than is reasonable or prudent, having due regard for visibility, traffic conditions, and the condition of the roadway surface of the bicycle lane, and in a manner which does not endanger the safety of bicyclists.

    As you can see, the law also allows you to cross the bike lane to park, or to enter/exit from a private driveway... And none of those situations normally have dashed lines.

    Quote Quoting dtch
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    i have a court date set for next month. any advice on how i should present my case or if i even have a case? i cant take traffic school because i already used that option for something earlier. i can't really afford the insurance hike so this is really important for me. thank you very much in advance for your help!
    You have no case... If you choose to contest it hoping the cop won't show up then that is still your option.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Entering Bike Lane Before 200 for Right Turn but with Shoulder Opened

    thanks very much for your response. that all makes sense and i'll be sure to do that in the future.

    if you were in my position, do you have any recommendations on how you would present this case to the judge? the way i look at it, i don't really have anything to lose. i can't do traffic school and at worst the judge finds me guilty and i'm in the same spot anyways.

    i was hoping to explain that i understand why what i did was illegal but that i wasn't violating the spirit of the law which im assuming is to prevent people from just using the bike line as another traffic lane. hopefully the judge has some mercy and is a little lenient.

    my primary concern is the hit to my insurance. the fine i can live with, the insurance is what will really hurt. thanks again for your help.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Entering Bike Lane Before 200 for Right Turn but with Shoulder Opened

    Quote Quoting dtch
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    if you were in my position, do you have any recommendations on how you would present this case to the judge? the way i look at it, i don't really have anything to lose. i can't do traffic school and at worst the judge finds me guilty and i'm in the same spot anyways.
    I honestly see no benefit from presenting anything to the judge... You might appear for the arraignment and offer your explanation there and possibly, maybe get some sort of fine reduction, but to assume that any explanation will result in the judge feeling enough sympathy to justify dismissing the case... Not going to happen!

    Quote Quoting dtch
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    i was hoping to explain that i understand why what i did was illegal but that i wasn't violating the spirit of the law which im assuming is to prevent people from just using the bike line as another traffic lane. hopefully the judge has some mercy and is a little lenient.
    "Intent", is not an element of the offense in this case, or in many other similar traffic violation cases...

    I am not really sure what you're asking.... Mercy and leniency are not going to get you a dismissal of a charge that you are clearly guilty of. That is not how the legal justice system works. You are either guilty or not guilty... There are no mercy related in betweens...

    Quote Quoting dtch
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    my primary concern is the hit to my insurance. the fine i can live with, the insurance is what will really hurt. thanks again for your help.
    Violation points and insurance premium hikes will hurt... Some more than others, but its part of the process that follows us after committing a violation. And it is something that we have little to no control over. You can continue stressing yourself out over things you cannot control but what good will that do? Like I said in my last post, your only chance for a dismissal is if the officer does not appear for trial. Other than that, it is pretty simple and straight forward... Sorry, but there is no magic potion to make it go away!

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    Default Re: Entering a Bike Lane More than 200 Feet Before the Turn

    This situation defies common sense. Why would they create a lined turn lane it is illegal to use?

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    Default Re: Entering a Bike Lane More than 200 Feet Before the Turn

    I am an avid road cyclist that rides about 150 miles a week. I am very familiar with these type of bike lane markings because my life is in the motorist's hands at every intersection. The solid white bike lane line should be dashed at the entry of the right turn lane. As it is, there is no legal way to make that right turn. You are not at fault. Let a judge tell you how to make a legal right turn at that intersection, not a cop.

    Bike lane lines are ALWAYS broken before an interaction to allow cars making a right turn to hug the right curb. That is also the most dangerous place for a cyclist too. But so be it.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Entering a Bike Lane More than 200 Feet Before the Turn

    Quote Quoting Disagreeable
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    This situation defies common sense. Why would they create a lined turn lane it is illegal to use?
    Man, it really is getting ridiculous out there... And no, it is not about creating a traffic lane that is illegal to use. One can use that lane but must consider other provisions of law as well. This is about attempting to force a square peg into a round hole... Had that been a parking lane, or if it had a driveway to a parking or a residence,... etc, there would be no prohibition to using it as such in spite of the solid lines marking the bike lane. But to cross the bike lane at 300 feet (where the OP crossed) instead of 200 feet (as allowed under the code), gives rise to the possibility that one's speed in that restricted of an area will be higher than is safe (even when approaching the turn) which would then defy the purpose of adding in a bicycle lane, so you limit the distance, you have more control over the speed.

    You want to see something that truly defies common sense?

    Downtown LA, the epitome of congestion during rush hour... But even with street widths being fairly limited due to existing real estate, they are actually taking lanes away and converting them to bike lanes... But to further show short sited and narrow visioned they can be at times, and out of concern for bicyclists, they painted these bicycle lanes an emerald green fluorescent color that freaking glows in the dark...



    This is in what is called the Historic District in Downtown, or what used to be a hub for filmmakers seeking these prime locations for many productions... Yet these horrendous looking lanes had the Film Industry Seeing Red Over Green Bike Lane

    And do you think it stops at where those white lines sit? Hell no... This is the philosophy in L.A. or possibly the entire state:



    Combine that with a new law that goes into effect in September...

    Quote Quoting Assembly Bill AB 1371
    Bicycles: Passing Distance. AB 1371 (Bradford), known as the Three Feet for Safety Act, will require a motor vehicle driver passing a bicycle that is proceeding in the same direction to pass with no less than 3 feet between any part of the vehicle and any part of the bicycle or driver. When three feet is not possible, the motor vehicle must slow to a reasonable and prudent speed and only pass when no danger is present to the bicyclist. Failing to do so can incur a fine, regardless of a collision or not. This law will take effect September 16, 2014.
    That... Is when it stops to make ANY sense whatsoever...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Quoting So Cal
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    I am very familiar with these type of bike lane markings because my life is in the motorist's hands at every intersection. The solid white bike lane line should be dashed at the entry of the right turn lane.
    The code section the OP was cited for is posted above… Where is it in that code section, or any other code section in the California Vehicle code do you see a requirement that the bike lane have dashed lines? Or that a driver can only cross it when it is dashed but not when it is solid?

    Quote Quoting So Cal
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    As it is, there is no legal way to make that right turn.
    And so it is your opinion, that as it is, the OP crossing over the bike lane is illegal!

    And yet you continue on by saying:

    Quote Quoting So Cal
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    You are not at fault. . Let a judge tell you how to make a legal right turn at that intersection, not a cop.
    I don’t know what it is you’re smoking but it seems like its some damned good sh1t!

    This is not about fault, it is about guilt or innocence, it is about committing a violation of law; a law that is neither ambiguous nor unclear. And judges have better things to do that to have to sit there to explain basic English to those with the comprehension level of a 2nd grader.

    Quote Quoting So Cal
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    That is also the most dangerous place for a cyclist too. But so be it.
    The relevant code section also allows a driver to cross a bike lane to park roadside, or to enter/exit the roadway from/to a parking lot or a private driveway... Are you saying that unless the lines are dashed, a driver cannot park? If so, how did this driver get in?



    Better yet, how does he get out? How did the other cars get close to the curb to park?

    How about these cars... How did they get to the parking lane and how do they get out?



    Quote Quoting So Cal
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    That is also the most dangerous place for a cyclist too. But so be it.
    Just like any other road user, cyclists have a duty to exercise due care, to ensure their own safety…

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    Default Re: Entering a Bike Lane More than 200 Feet Before the Turn

    Quote Quoting That Guy
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    Combine that with a new law that goes into effect in September...

    That... Is when it stops to make ANY sense whatsoever...
    Speaking as a cyclist and motorcyclist, I disagree. Motorcycles, bicycles, and pedestrians are all more vulnerable road users than cars and trucks. Encouraging people to walk or ride a bicycle keeps cars off these congested streets, keeps fuel prices lower since less gas is being used, and keeps that LA air cleaner since fewer cars are emitting pollution. Many other states have similar 3-foot rules for bicycles. Passage of these laws has not lead to anarchy, or bicycle messengers attacking innocent people in the streets. I do agree that all users must exercise due care, but if a driver of a car or truck fails to exercise such care the result is inevitably fatal if a bicyclist or pedestrian is involved. In general, you don't seem opposed to the state enacting laws that are designed to benefit public safety. That's the purpose of traffic laws, after all. These 3-foot laws are a mild attempt at protecting some of the road users who are more vulnerable than cars and trucks. Our current legal system makes it acceptable for drivers to kill cyclists. Is the value of a cyclist's life worth less than that of a motorist's?

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    Default Re: Entering a Bike Lane More than 200 Feet Before the Turn

    Quote Quoting themadnorwegian
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    Speaking as a cyclist and motorcyclist, I disagree. Motorcycles, bicycles, and pedestrians are all more vulnerable road users than cars and trucks. Encouraging people to walk or ride a bicycle keeps cars off these congested streets, keeps fuel prices lower since less gas is being used, and keeps that LA air cleaner since fewer cars are emitting pollution. Many other states have similar 3-foot rules for bicycles. Passage of these laws has not lead to anarchy, or bicycle messengers attacking innocent people in the streets. I do agree that all users must exercise due care, but if a driver of a car or truck fails to exercise such care the result is inevitably fatal if a bicyclist or pedestrian is involved. In general, you don't seem opposed to the state enacting laws that are designed to benefit public safety. That's the purpose of traffic laws, after all. These 3-foot laws are a mild attempt at protecting some of the road users who are more vulnerable than cars and trucks. Our current legal system makes it acceptable for drivers to kill cyclists. Is the value of a cyclist's life worth less than that of a motorist's?
    I agree. The state is trying to change the motorist's mindset of disregard and animosity toward cyclists, which seems to even exist here, with a pro-cyclist campaign.

    Whether a right turn lane is 100' or 500' long, it should be entered where the bike lane is dashed. That bike lane is not dashed at the entry of the right turn lane, therefore that right turn lane cannot be used. And yes, there is a difference between driving in the bike lane and crossing that line to park or use a driveway.

    IMO, it is reasonable to assume that right turn lane can be used, regardless of the fact a line painter screwed up. Reasonability trumps law any day of the week. This should have been settled on the side of the road, not by waisting our precious resources by settling it in a courtroom.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Entering a Bike Lane More than 200 Feet Before the Turn

    Quote Quoting themadnorwegian
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    Speaking as a cyclist and motorcyclist, I disagree.
    For starters, I too ride bicycles since (just picked up my latest addition a month ago) and have been an avid motorcyclist since the age of eight years old. However, I never see motorcyclists riding the sidewalk, nor using a crosswalk to circumvent having to stop at a red light, and more often than not, when I am in my car, I can barely keep up with a motorcyclist, so I have no qualms with them impeding traffic or lane straddling just because they want to chit chat with their fellow riders. Furthermore, I am not aware of any motorcyclists who ride without head lights, reflectors and tail lights. And yet I see those violations committed by bicyclists each and every day.

    Now I can only assume that you do not commit any of those violations on your bicycle, do you TMN? I also know that you live in an area where.... lets call them "demographics", are different from what I see down my way.

    Quote Quoting themadnorwegian
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    Motorcycles, bicycles, and pedestrians are all more vulnerable road users than cars and trucks.
    But if you find yourself in a group of individuals where you are more vulnerable to danger, do you exercise more care or do you assume that others are responsible for ensuring your safety? I can only guess that your answer is "I exercise more due care"... And that was my point. If I am wrong, then by all means, we can all have a different opinion.

    Also, I am not sure which part of my comment gave you the impression that my comments included motorcyclists or pedestrians, when I was specifically speaking about bike lanes and the latest rage to treat bicyclists as if they are special group. My opinion is just because they are on a bicycle, a "vehicle" by any definition, does not entitle them to any more rights than any another "vehicle" operator out there. Instead, it imposes the same duties and responsibilities to watch their surroundings and ensure their own safety. Just because they are riding a bicycle, does not mean they can circumvent the same rules, laws and regulations that car or truck drivers are subject to. And the first paragraph in this post speaks to only some of those violations.

    Quote Quoting themadnorwegian
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    Encouraging people to walk or ride a bicycle keeps cars off these congested streets, keeps fuel prices lower since less gas is being used, and keeps that LA air cleaner since fewer cars are emitting pollution.
    And yet cutting down lanes in an area that already suffers from congestion, therefore creating bigger back ups, longer wait times and more fuel wasted as cars and trucks idle away waiting to get through traffic, is not conducive to any of the benefits you listed. My point about bike lanes in downtown LA was to suggest that it was not practical to cause more congestion so that we can relieve congestion. At least not when those bike lanes are deserted most of the day, even during rush hour traffic and the only vehicles riding in them are those cars/trucks who park and the ones who turn, but very few bikes.

    I won't get into why Antonio Villaraigo$a (the former LA Mayor) pushed for those bike lanes but they are there, as much an eye sore as they are a reminder that people in LA cannot live without their cars! No matter which candy color you paint their bike lanes with!

    Quote Quoting themadnorwegian
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    Passage of these laws has not lead to anarchy, or bicycle messengers attacking innocent people in the streets.
    I wasn't aware of the opposite being true... Meaning were people randomly beating up bicyclists for no other reason than them being on a bicycle or intentionally run off road before these laws were enacted? If so, consider that road rage occurs by one vehicle operator going after another vehicle operator. And with a bicycle operator being the more vulnerable one of the two, you would think he/she would assume a bigger role in avoiding conflict. Instead, all this brouhaha is doing is it is creating this cocky attitude that bicyclists can do no wrong and it is always the car driver who will suffer.

    Quote Quoting themadnorwegian
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    I do agree that all users must exercise due care, but if a driver of a car or truck fails to exercise such care the result is inevitably fatal if a bicyclist or pedestrian is involved.
    And that makes it the car drivers fault each and every time?

    Quote Quoting themadnorwegian
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    In general, you don't seem opposed to the state enacting laws that are designed to benefit public safety. That's the purpose of traffic laws, after all.
    You are right about that.. And you can read my usual responses to those who violate 21950 with regards to pedestrian safety and you will see that I am all for safety. But you also have an idea that I often speed which in essence says that I think the orderly movement of traffic and equal application of the law to all operators are important factors as well. In fact, if they were to enforce existing laws on bicycle riders as strictly as they do upon motor vehicle drivers, then we would not need to enact more laws restricting the use of highways" on every other category for the benefit of a small minority.

    And by minority this is what I mean... I understand this is a worldwide movement. And I understand that these numbers can change from state to state and from city to city... But just as an idea on how much bicycle ridership in the United states compares to other countries in Europe, for example:

    Bicycle Trips as Share of Total Trips in Select Countries, 1974-2009

    United Kingdom 2%
    France 3%
    Germany 10%
    Denmark 18%
    Netherlands 25%

    In the good ole U.S. of A... The total is 1%....

    Let us assume it sis much higher in California that it is in the rest of the nation.... Let us say it is 5%... Does that justify enacting a new law?

    Point is, I think you misconstrued my comments to mean something completely different than what I had intended. See, when I ride my bicycle, I don't put my headphones on and my music on blast, I don't wear my blinders and assume that I own the road, I don't ride without lights and assume that a driver approaching me from behind or turning in front of me is going to see me by way of his headlights. I make sure I have lights that is bright enough to be seen; I don't ride in the middle of the lane, I take the right edge of the roadway, and when I am getting passed by a vehicle, I slow down in case I come up on a pothole or a rock in my way and feel I need to swing left or right.

    If current laws are not enforced, why would we expect a new law to get enforced when in reality, a law that mandates a 3 foot distance before anyone passes me is simply a law that gets applies after I have my ass scrapped off the pavement because some idiot plowed into me... What good is that going to do for me when I can't live without my ass?

    Quote Quoting themadnorwegian
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    Our current legal system makes it acceptable for drivers to kill cyclists. Is the value of a cyclist's life worth less than that of a motorist's?
    OK... And I hope you were able to see the counter point in that same article that there is "Room For Debate" and "Should the laws and infrastructure be altered to recognize differences between bikes and cars, or should cyclists and drivers be treated the same?".... What good is a new law getting enacted, if we are n't enforcing the existing laws that are already in effect?

    No matter how you twist it, I don't see where it was that I said that the value of ANYONE's life is worth less than anyone else's... On a lighthearted note, I still think the old Darwinism joke about nature taking its course, and cruel as it might sound amid this discussion, still holds true.

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