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  1. #21

    Default Re: Quit to Due Change of Hours, and Denied Unemployment

    I don't know - I just googled it. I am not as well versed in the law as I was hoping others here might be, but I thought it might help someone else form a more informed opinion or point me in a better direction.

    I did however find this on Idaho's labor website:

    For good cause to be attributable to the employment, it must relate to the wages, hours or working conditions of the job. A change in conditions created by your employer or a breach of your employment agreement which is substantial and adversely affects you may be good cause to quit. Also, if the job itself adversely affects your health or aggravates or worsens a medical condition, it could be good cause to quit. Medical documentation may be required

    ------

    So the way I am reading it, I potentially DO have good cause according to their own website.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Quit to Due Change of Hours, and Denied Unemployment

    Not dispositive. In UI matters, judges frequently examine similiar fact patterns in other jurisdictions. It is encouraging if it really is from NJ. NJ requires a quit to be connected with the work, and NJ making the distinction as to what caused the child care issue was a real victory for that claimant and everyone else in that state because I'm sure up until that decision claimants were universally denied as a "child care" issue.

    Quote Quoting jk
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    and that is from what state?

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Quit to Due Change of Hours, and Denied Unemployment

    Quote Quoting chyvan
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    Not dispositive. In UI matters, judges frequently examine similiar fact patterns in other jurisdictions. It is encouraging if it really is from NJ. NJ requires a quit to be connected with the work, and NJ making the distinction as to what caused the child care issue was a real victory for that claimant and everyone else in that state because I'm sure up until that decision claimants were universally denied as a "child care" issue.
    I saw PA at the bottom of the page. I guess that is where the firm publishing that page is located. I could not find that published in a quick search.



    For good cause to be attributable to the employment, it must relate to the wages, hours or working conditions of the job. A change in conditions created by your employer or a breach of your employment agreement which is substantial and adversely affects you may be good cause to quit. Also, if the job itself adversely affects your health or aggravates or worsens a medical condition, it could be good cause to quit. Medical documentation may be required
    that is a very generic statement. Notice that everything says MAY BE, COULD BE, nothing says IS.


    All you can do is keep chasing the rabbit down the hole. It may go your way. It may not. Often times, it is how your case is presented to be cautious of what statements and claims you do make. chyvan can probably help you as much as anybody on that.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Quit to Due Change of Hours, and Denied Unemployment

    I really appreciate everyone's feedback. I can see the arguments for both sides - and I agree that the employer has the right to do what he did. My problem is being denied unemployment because THEY wanted to make changes to my life that I wasn't able to make (and with no notice to me). I just wanted to know what legal arguments I might be able to bring up during my hearing and if there things I should avoid saying or doing while waiting for/or during the appeal.

    I am looking for employment as well as seeking to establish self-employment just to get some money coming in, but that takes time and in the meantime, I am really worried about paying my bills.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Quit to Due Change of Hours, and Denied Unemployment

    Quote Quoting UnemployedAgain
    View Post
    I have a child with special needs (autism) and I cannot place him in just any environment - and many providers don't want to deal with special needs children. I would never respond to an ad on Craigslist and drop my child off there the following morning without interviewing them, checking references, etc. Finding adequate childcare requires time that I was not given. The only family I have here is a mother-in-law who is not capable of caring for him because she has a bad knee (recent surgery) and hernia and cannot lift him.
    Your choices were not "Resort to a craigslist ad while doing no further investigation, or doing nothing at all to try to find child care." You have given us no indication that you asked your employer if you could continue to work in your job if you found child care during your notice period, or if you asked them to accommodate you at all in relation to your search. I am accepting, at this point, your evasiveness and your hostility to the notion that you should have looked for child care options as confirmation that you did absolutely nothing to try to find child care.

    That really is too bad, given the facts you have described, as I suspect you could have made a plausible argument that your documented inability to find child care for a special needs child constituted grounds for resigning without a loss of benefits. But without your having made any effort at all to find child care that would allow you to continue in your job, I can't say that I'm surprised that the person reviewing your claim did not find "compelling personal circumstances" in the absence of your being able to show that you made an effort to avoid quitting.
    Quote Quoting UnemployedAgain
    I stated my availability as no earlier than 7, and the employer worked me during those hours for 2 years, so it was an established agreement.
    There's nothing in their being able to allow you to start work at 7 for two years prior to their determination that they needed to start your shift at an earlier time that creates any sort of contract.
    Quote Quoting UnemployedAgain
    You guys are pretty harsh - I hope my hearing officer goes easier on me! LOL!
    I suggest trying to document that your assumptions about child care were accurate. It would be more compelling if done in advance of quitting but, as they say, better late than never.
    Quote Quoting chyvan
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    The OP is asserting that she doesn't have to accept the employer changes. I agree that the argument because I didn't accept my employer's changes, and I got UI, but I had a really long wait that involved two deputy, two tribunal, and 3 board of review appeals.
    You can "agree" all you want, but unless you happen to have sought unemployment in Idaho her case will be decided under different laws and regulations than applied to your case. Idaho's statutes and regulations have been quoted in this thread. Do you think they're anywhere near as friendly to workers as the statutes and regulations of your state? As I see it, they're pretty darn unfriendly to workers.
    Quote Quoting chyvan
    She's already quit her job so she either sees it through or gives up, but I don't believe she quit her job because of "child care." The root cause was the employer's unilateral schedule change.
    Quitting due to a unilateral shift change, without any other reason provided, will get her turned down for unemployment. So no, that argument won't fly.
    Quote Quoting jk
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    and that is from what state?
    New Jersey.
    Quote Quoting UnemployedAgain
    View Post
    For good cause to be attributable to the employment, it must relate to the wages, hours or working conditions of the job. A change in conditions created by your employer or a breach of your employment agreement which is substantial and adversely affects you may be good cause to quit. Also, if the job itself adversely affects your health or aggravates or worsens a medical condition, it could be good cause to quit. Medical documentation may be required.
    Note the "and". You need to make the case that, under the facts, the change in the start time for your shift was substantial and adversely affected you, consistent with the statute and regulations previously cited. If you don't present evidence on either prong, the ALJ won't have a basis to find in your favor.
    Quote Quoting UnemployedAgain
    So the way I am reading it, I potentially DO have good cause according to their own website.
    Assuming you provide evidence that would support a finding that the shift change necessitated your resignation due to compelling personal circumstances, you may be able to build a case.
    Quote Quoting chyvan
    View Post
    In UI matters, judges frequently examine similiar fact patterns in other jurisdictions.
    In novel situations where there are no local regulations or precedents that dictate a course of action, how another state treats statutes or regulations that are similar to (or in some cases identical to) those of a court reviewing a legal matter can help the court determine how language should be interpreted. The decisions of other states are not going to be considered if the outcome is dictated by local precedent, or where the statutes or regulations relied upon in the other state are materially different.
    Quote Quoting chyvan
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    It is encouraging if it really is from NJ. NJ requires a quit to be connected with the work, and NJ making the distinction as to what caused the child care issue was a real victory for that claimant and everyone else in that state because I'm sure up until that decision claimants were universally denied as a "child care" issue.
    The decision in the New Jersey case, according to Law.com, was that "where the after-school program selected by claimant for her child closed at 5:30 p.m, the unilateral alteration of claimant's hours created a considerable obstacle to claimant."
    Quote Quoting Summary of Silent Type, Inc. v. Board Of Review, Department of Labor et al, App. Div.
    Generally child care arrangements are not considered work-related. However, where, as here, the employer suddenly and unilaterally changes work hours that significantly impair an employee's child care arrangements, and the employer rejects a reasonable compromise on hours, an employee who leaves employment in such circumstances may establish good cause attributable to the work.
    The key factor would be that the employee was able to document that there was a significant impairment of her child care arrangements (the after-school program ended at 5:30, period, and it's reasonable to infer that she could not get the child into a different program or subsequent program without leaving work to arrange transportation), and she could also document that the employer rejected a reasonable compromise. The rationale is similar to Idaho's "compelling personal circumstances" standard - but again, that's something that's going to be determined based upon facts, not assumptions.
    Quote Quoting UnemployedAgain
    View Post
    I just wanted to know what legal arguments I might be able to bring up during my hearing and if there things I should avoid saying or doing while waiting for/or during the appeal.
    From what you've told us so far, it sounds like you will want to emphasize your knowledge of the local child care options and that none could have accommodated your child (documenting your claims to the extent possible), and further documenting that other options were not available due to the early hours and your lack of available family members or (peculiarly early-rising) friends in the area.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Quit to Due Change of Hours, and Denied Unemployment

    The claimant isn't at the ALJ phase yet. That's in two more weeks. She has every opportunity to get her argument correct, and her proofs in order. This isn't a lost cause just yet.

    Quote Quoting UnemployedAgain
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    I filed for unemployment and was denied. I am currently appealing and have a hearing in less than 2 weeks.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Quit to Due Change of Hours, and Denied Unemployment

    Quote Quoting chyvan
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    The claimant isn't at the ALJ phase yet. That's in two more weeks. She has every opportunity to get her argument correct, and her proofs in order. This isn't a lost cause just yet.
    Nobody said it was. But it would be a simpler matter, and might not even be under appeal, had the OP documented a search for child care and explained her child's special needs.

    What term do you prefer for the person making the initial determination? Or are you just quibbling?

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Quit to Due Change of Hours, and Denied Unemployment

    The first decision comes from a deputy, claim examiner, or an adjudicator.

    It's a big deal because once on ALJ, ULJ, or hearing officer gets involved that means that the record, evidence, findings of fact, and reasoning and conclusions of law have been established, and getting them changed is a monumental burden.

    At this stage, the claimant gets a complete do over de novo and can present a new theory, change the story, get facts to fit, and present everything in a manner more consistent with case law to support a "good cause" quit.

    I could have gone with "reduction in hours," and presisted to do so throught the entire process, but under my state's regulations for UI, it would have remained a total fail. By dispelling that the reduction in hours had anything to do with my leaving and that it was about the loss of my full-time benefits, I won.

    She's already stated that she was denied because of "child care." That is the clue to not use that basis anymore during the next phase.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Quit to Due Change of Hours, and Denied Unemployment

    Quote Quoting UnemployedAgain
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    What does New Jersey have to do with you?
    If you wanted babies all to yourself, you should have created them by yourself. Until you do that, children have the right to BOTH parents, especially since you found them suitable to procreate with.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Quit to Due Change of Hours, and Denied Unemployment

    chyvan, if it's a "big deal", not a quibble, surely you would have taken the time to find out the actual process in Idaho and to share the actual title of the person who made the initial review.

    If you believe that "the claimant gets a complete do over de novo and can present a new theory, change the story, get facts to fit" you should not complain, "She's already stated that she was denied because of 'child care.' That is the clue to not use that basis anymore during the next phase". Especially when you have no other basis to argue that she had cause to resign.
    Quote Quoting Idaho Unemployment Regulations, Sec. 450 - Quit
    01. Burden of Proof . The claimant has the burden of proof to establish that he voluntarily left his employment with good cause in connection with the employment to be eligible for benefits.

    02. Cause Connected with Employment. To be connected with employment, a claimant’s reason(s) for leaving the employment must arise from the working conditions, job tasks, or employment agreement. If the claimant’s reason(s) for leaving the employment arise from personal/non job-related matters, the reasons are not connected with the claimant’s employment.

    03. Good Cause. The standard of what constitutes good cause is the standard of reasonableness as applied to the average man or woman. Whether good cause is present depends upon whether a reasonable person would consider the circumstances resulting in the claimant’s unemployment to be real, substantial, and compelling.

    * * *
    Do you think "a reasonable person would consider" quitting because a shift start time was moved by two hours, in and of itself, "to be real, substantial, and compelling"?.

    As the regulations make clear, she must document a "real, substantial, and compelling" reason for her resignation based upon a change in the start time of her shift - the only change her employer made - and based upon what we've been told so far the closest thing I can see for trying to meet that burden is arguing that the employer's change of start times violated an 'employment agreement' (albeit an informal agreement that the employer may claim did not exist, in an at-will context) and due to the change she could not arrange for care for her child - and even at that, the regulations are unfriendly to the claim.

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