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  1. #1
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    Default Towed for Parking in a Red Zone

    My question involves a traffic citation from the state of: California

    I parked in a driveway when parallel parking and it was difficult to see the driveway. The red marking on the far side which was somewhat visible was completely faded as I was looking back to parallel park whereas the near side which I could not see looking back was brightly painted read. I arrived before the tow truck had hooked up my car, but I was told it was too late and the officer had no choice. In talking to other police later I was told that the officer in fact had discretion to tow or not to tow. I off course wonder what such discretion is based on since I was polite, and my story seemed reasonable that I had not done it intentionally. I also fail to understand why an officers discretion is given so much latitude. I went from a 180 citation to over a 500 dollar fine because of her choice. And of course we could not get the car out until the police station opened the next day and we lived in another town. Apparently it is the case that most towns you must wait until the police station opens to get your release? Does anybody know why this must be the case? they certainly have the technology to accept credit cards through police cars if they wanted to, and the misery of those stranded in foreign towns with no way home and perhaps no money for a hotel seems exceptionally punitive for little reason. I mean this is a democracy and is that what the people want in their towns?

    I am a bit of an activist type and am interested in how much parking enforcement rules should be posted on city websites? so if anyone has information on what is required or what channels could be used to increase the transparency in this process I would really appreciate it
    Matt

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    Default Re: Towed

    I'm more up for increased penalties for illegally parked vehicles.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Towed for Parking in a Red Zone

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    My question involves a traffic citation from the state of: California

    I parked in a driveway when parallel parking and it was difficult to see the driveway. The red marking on the far side which was somewhat visible was completely faded as I was looking back to parallel park whereas the near side which I could not see looking back was brightly painted read. I arrived before the tow truck had hooked up my car, but I was told it was too late and the officer had no choice. In talking to other police later I was told that the officer in fact had discretion to tow or not to tow. I off course wonder what such discretion is based on since I was polite, and my story seemed reasonable that I had not done it intentionally. I also fail to understand why an officers discretion is given so much latitude. I went from a 180 citation to over a 500 dollar fine because of her choice. And of course we could not get the car out until the police station opened the next day and we lived in another town. Apparently it is the case that most towns you must wait until the police station opens to get your release? Does anybody know why this must be the case? they certainly have the technology to accept credit cards through police cars if they wanted to, and the misery of those stranded in foreign towns with no way home and perhaps no money for a hotel seems exceptionally punitive for little reason. I mean this is a democracy and is that what the people want in their towns?

    I am a bit of an activist type and am interested in how much parking enforcement rules should be posted on city websites? so if anyone has information on what is required or what channels could be used to increase the transparency in this process I would really appreciate it
    Matt
    To begin with, why did you park in the red zone? And a city or county can create and post as much parking rules on websites as it feels to be sufficient. A city or county can post only one parking rule on a website such as "Illegal parking is not allowed".

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Towed for Parking in a Red Zone

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    I arrived before the tow truck had hooked up my car, but I was told it was too late and the officer had no choice.
    Arguably, the officer should not have completed the tow if you were on scene before the two truck had hooked the car up in any way.

    In talking to other police later I was told that the officer in fact had discretion to tow or not to tow. I off course wonder what such discretion is based on since I was polite, and my story seemed reasonable that I had not done it intentionally. I also fail to understand why an officers discretion is given so much latitude.
    Officers are given a great deal of discretion in a number of things. Parking matters is but one of them. You really do NOT want to take that disretion away because it will likely result in a "SHALL tow" policy, rather than a "shall NOT tow" one.

    I went from a 180 citation to over a 500 dollar fine because of her choice.
    Actually, the "fine" amount you mention is the cost to retrieve the vehicle and not a "fine" at all. The cost of the parking citation (the $180, I assume) is the fine and the associated fees.

    Apparently it is the case that most towns you must wait until the police station opens to get your release?
    Generally. However, there is some recent case law that lends itself to an argument that a release must be made available even at night. However, given that the tow yard will likely charge a "gate fee" for an after-hours release that is higher than waiting until the next morning, you likely wouldn't save any money by waiting until the following morning.

    they certainly have the technology to accept credit cards through police cars if they wanted to,
    The officers are NOT going to be involved in financial transactions - especially from their vehicles! The cost to make this available would be prohibitive - especially since the number of transactions that MIGHT be performed by an officer would be extremely minimal to non-existent.

    and the misery of those stranded in foreign towns with no way home and perhaps no money for a hotel seems exceptionally punitive for little reason. I mean this is a democracy and is that what the people want in their towns?
    Talk to the state legislature in Sacramento - they make the laws, for the most part.

    I am a bit of an activist type and am interested in how much parking enforcement rules should be posted on city websites?
    As much or as little as they want.

    But, I doubt that there is anyone out there that does not know you do not park in a red zone. You don't need a link to the city's parking ordinances to know this - in fact, it's almost always a question on the state DMV's driver's license written exam.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Towed for Parking in a Red Zone

    Thanks Sergeant, I really do appreciate the response. Most of my disagreement, or seeing things in a different light, revolves around the issue of communities setting law in a democratic and transparent fashion, and I doubt that is a subject you want to spend a lot of time with me on. But along those lines, I would be interested if you have any sources or understandings for clarifying those issues. For instance when I asked about more information for the public in terms of the law being posted, your answer was 'they' can provide as little or as much information as they want. Who is they? The community, elected officials or the police department? Further maybe you could clarify or assist me in finding sources that explain what parking and traffic laws are mandated by Sacramento and what is up to local discretion? For instance, in the case of the driveway, it seems that some localities have different requirements in how semi obscure commercial driveways need to post signs etc

    As for the discretion of the officer being a bonus. Maybe. Again, from my perspective, the question is how amenable is the law to the will of the local community. If the local community decides the law should be that if someone arrives on the scene of a tow before their car is hitched that the driver is allowed to leave then that is the law. I am sure you can make the argument that this could lead to micro management by the community, but I would suggest there is a happy medium, and wide police discretion is not necessarily saving us from even more punitive measures. Also, I would assume police discretion would still be based on some criteria. And while such a criteria may not be legally binding that it would nonetheless lend itself to some consistency and general fairness. For instance if a person approaches yelling obscenities at the officer, I think most people would understand a negative choice made for that individual. But I do believe a community has a right to some transparency on these decisions and a right to having some discretion over the nature of police discretion

    Also, I simply do not understand your point that police could not take payments. Why should it be that my chiropractor can take a payment on a portable device, and the police cannot? The point may be moot since I am mostly interested in how individuals can avoid be stuck for days in a city with no means home and perhaps no means for shelter within the community to which they have become castaways. But if I understand the scenario correctly, if I was not towed I would have only been issued a citation and there would have been no need for immediate payment. But I remain interested in the general question beyond my case. I see no reason why an additional charge should be made by the tow company for someone to pay their bill, especially if the person is there at the time of the tow because the driver is there anyway. Now if the company has to make a special trip to accept payment that is a different scenario and I understand your point. However given the velocity of technology it should soon be pretty easy for drivers to be notified through some electronic means when there cars are being towed , and therefore they should be able to arrive at the tow yard while an attendant is available.

    Final point was regarding the idea that the tow charge is not a fine, but rather a cost. I tend to disagree, but maybe this is just semantics. The cost of a police impound is much greater than the cost of a regular tow. It may be true that there is some additional time involved for the tow company in police impounds as opposed to a non impound tow. But from where I stand such any increased amount of time for an impound is in no way proportional to the increased cost. so I stand by the claim that it is indeed , in a sense, a fine

    Thanks Sergeant, I am not trying to be a pain in the ass, but rather, trying to raise issues that I see as important for the greater society. So I am perhaps pompous, but not overtly argumentative IMHO

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    Default Re: Towed for Parking in a Red Zone

    Strictly for conversational purposes, do you really think public confidence in law enforcement would be boosted by their possession of POS devices? Do you think any commercial driveway owner, whether they use the drive every night or one night a month should come back to your car blocking the entrance, because you did not respect their right to peaceful enjoyment? How would you react to coming home and not being able to access your drive for hours because some jerk blocked it with his car?

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Towed for Parking in a Red Zone

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    Thanks Sergeant, I really do appreciate the response. Most of my disagreement or seeing things in a different light revolves around the issue of communities setting law in a democratic and transparent fashion, and I doubt that is a subject you want to spend a lot of time with me on.
    Unless you live in that particular community, you do not know how open they are about enacting local ordinances or even about publicizing them. But, since the law that permits towing from a fire lane is based upon CA STATE law, it's not up to the local city to educate the motoring public on something they should already know.

    But along those lines I would be interested if you have any sources or understandings on clarifying those issues. For instance when I asked about more information for the public, your answer was 'they' can provide as little or as much as they want. Who is they? The community, elected officials or the police department?
    All of the above. There is no law that governs how little or how much they have to publicize those ordinances that have been duly adopted. There are laws that govern HOW a local ordinance is enacted - presentation, reading, public notice, etc., but afterwards, they don't necessarily have to have a press conference announcing it.

    And, again, this is an issue of state law, not simply a local ordinance.

    So, if you want to check on the process by which a local ordinance moves from proposal to law, you can do some research online and look up the Government Code.

    Further maybe you could clarify or assist me in finding sources that explain what parking and traffic laws are mandated by Sacramento and what is up to local discretion? For instance the driveway It seems that some localities have different requirements in how semi obscure commercial driveways need to post signs etc
    VC 22500 et seq. is a good place to start. There are several sections of the Vehicle Code that cover parking and towing laws, and which require a local ordinance in order to adopt.

    As for the discretion of the officer being a bonus. Maybe?
    The law permits discretion in most areas of enforcement. Agency policy might modify this.

    Again, from my perspective, the question is how amenable is the law to the will of the local community. If the local community decides the law should be that if someone arrives on the scene of a tow before their car is hitched and that the driver is allowed to leave then that is the law.
    Agency policy will most often reflect community values. If the community - as reflected through action, redress, or the influence fo their local representatives - wants to modify agency policy, then that is what will happen. One example is Los Angeles. They have opted not to impound the vehicles driven by unlicensed drivers in order to placate a large undocumented and unlicensed driver community

    I am sure you can make the argument that this could lead to micro management by the community, but I would suggest there is a happy medium, and wide police discretion is not necessarily saving us from even more punitive measures. Also, I would assume police discretion would still be based on some criteria. And while such a criteria may not be legally binding that it would nonetheless lend itself to some consistency and general fairness. For instance if a person approaches yelling obscenities at the officer, I think most people would understand a negative choice made for that individual. but I do believe a community has a right to some transparency on these decisions and a right to having discretion over the nature of polices discretion - ostensibly to avoid negative economic impacts against that poppulation. But, it is an example of political will driving a policy that runs counter to common practice and, arguably, highway safety.

    Also, I simply do not understand your point that police could not take payments. Why should it be that my chiropractor can take a payment on a portable device, and the police cannot?
    This lends itself to all manner of problems - not the least of which is that we here in CA have no history of doing this, and I would argue that doing so can lend itself to all manner of accusation of malfeasance. I don't want my officers to be nose deep in a credit card transaction on the street or having to complete the necessary release records checks and paperwork in the field. While some states allow officers to take traffic offense payments in the field, this is a system that smacks of potential corruption - or, at least, the appearance of such.

    We pay office staff to do that sort of thing and to track records, receipts, payments, etc. - not officers.

    The point may be moot since I am mostly interested in how individuals can avoid be stuck for days in a city with no means home and perhaps no means for shelter within the community to which they have become castaways.
    If you ask, most agencies will have some resource available that they can contact on your behalf. I live in a very small community with few resources, and even we could find some sort of shelter for the night if the need were great enough. Most of the time, however, the person whose car is impounded either has family/friends in the area, has money, or chooses not to ask.

    But if I understand the scenario correctly, if I was not towed I would have only been issued a citation and there would have been no need for immediate payment.
    Correct. Without a tow, then you would have been issued either a parking ticket or a notice to appear. Either one could be handled at a later date.

    I see no reason why an additional charge should be made by the tow company for someone to pay their bill, especially if the person is there at the time of the tow because the driver is there anyway.
    I believe that the only way the tow driver is mandated to be paid is if he already has it on the hook. I'd have to look this up again, but I recall there being case law on the subject. And that drop fee is minimal (i.e. $100 or less). It's been a while since I have had to look that one up, and I have not had to conduct a hearing on such a scenario in many years, but if I recall the law correctly, the officer should have allowed you to leave with your citation.

    Now if the company has to make a special trip to accept payment that is a different scenario and I understand your point. However given the velocity of technology it should soon be pretty easy for drivers to be notified through some electronic means when there cars are being towed , and therefore they should be able to arrive at the tow yard while an attendant is available.
    Tow yards are not required to have 24 hour access - only normal business hours. After hours, they are permitted to charge a gate or late release fee in addition to any other fees that might be assessed.

    Final point was regarding the idea that the tow charge is not a fine, but rather a cost. I tend to disagree, but maybe this is just semantics.
    A fine is levied by government as a result of a determination of some form of malfeasance. The tow fees are paid to compensate the tow company for their reasonable expenses, and the vehicle release fee is paid to the police department ostensibly for the same reason ... though, personally, I believe many agencies charge far more than is reasonable for these.

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    Default Re: Towed for Parking in a Red Zone

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    Unless you live in that particular community, you do not know how open they are about enacting local ordinances or even about publicizing them. But, since the law that permits towing from a fire lane is based upon CA STATE law, it's not up to the local city to educate the motoring public on something they should already know.

    Well this is not what I suggested, so if we could stick to what was actually stated I would appreciate it


    All of the above. There is no law that governs how little or how much they have to publicize those ordinances that have been duly adopted. There are laws that govern HOW a local ordinance is enacted - presentation, reading, public notice, etc., but afterwards, they don't necessarily have to have a press conference announcing it.

    Actually I lived there for several years and believe it or not people from other towns can access their websites as well as the local papers and other sources of public information. If you want to stand in the way of transparency I find that unfortunate. Secondly it was not a fire lane. Also activists and the like have the right to create their own sites to explain the rules of the town if officials are not able to do, or are unwilling to do so so

    And, again, this is an issue of state law, not simply a local ordinance.

    And again I asked you to clarify what aspects are mandated by the state and which are not, and this do not seem to address that question. My question in this context was in regard to the posting of signs and painting of curbs the State law is amenable as well






    The law permits discretion in most areas of enforcement. Agency policy might modify this.


    Agency policy will most often reflect community values. If the community - as reflected through action, redress, or the influence fo their local representatives - wants to modify agency policy, then that is what will happen. One example is Los Angeles. They have opted not to impound the vehicles driven by unlicensed drivers in order to placate a large undocumented and unlicensed driver community

    This is one example, but in no way demonstrates that all laws are understood or agreed to by the public. An unwillingness or reluctance to even post the law would seem to be symptomatic of a glib belief that they believe and understand the law without any evidence that that is the case. The claim that the process is working just fine is simply your opinion and not based on any facts as far as I can see

    I am sure you can make the argument that this could lead to micro management by the community, but I would suggest there is a happy medium, and wide police discretion is not necessarily saving us from even more punitive measures. Also, I would assume police discretion would still be based on some criteria. And while such a criteria may not be legally binding that it would nonetheless lend itself to some consistency and general fairness. For instance if a person approaches yelling obscenities at the officer, I think most people would understand a negative choice made for that individual. but I do believe a community has a right to some transparency on these decisions and a right to having discretion over the nature of polices discretion - ostensibly to avoid negative economic impacts against that poppulation. But, it is an example of political will driving a policy that runs counter to common practice and, arguably, highway safety.


    This lends itself to all manner of problems - not the least of which is that we here in CA have no history of doing this, and I would argue that doing so can lend itself to all manner of accusation of malfeasance. I don't want my officers to be nose deep in a credit card transaction on the street or having to complete the necessary release records checks and paperwork in the field. While some states allow officers to take traffic offense payments in the field, this is a system that smacks of potential corruption - or, at least, the appearance of such.

    I made it clear the issue was your claim that increased officer discretion from police officers was saving the public from even more punitive measures, and in my opinion this answer did not address that point and instead only focused on the payment aspect which I acknowledged as relatively moot. On the other hand I do not have a problem with an officer whose discretion seems reasonable to the public. But if an when the sum total of such discretionary decisions seems to drift from the public interest, then I would suggest the public does have an option to limit officer discretion




    If you ask, most agencies will have some resource available that they can contact on your behalf. I live in a very small community with few resources, and even we could find some sort of shelter for the night if the need were great enough. Most of the time, however, the person whose car is impounded either has family/friends in the area, has money, or chooses not to ask.

    And when you say agencies who are you referring to? The police department was closed. And again how are you sure to what degree people may or may not be left stranded in other towns? I am glad your small town seems willing to work on this, but I am not sure that is the case everywhere Regardless, to me the point that people need to be left stranded seems like an unnecessary outcome, and steps need to be taken to avoid it if possible





    I believe that the only way the tow driver is mandated to be paid is if he already has it on the hook. I'd have to look this up again, but I recall there being case law on the subject. And that drop fee is minimal (i.e. $100 or less). It's been a while since I have had to look that one up, and I have not had to conduct a hearing on such a scenario in many years, but if I recall the law correctly, the officer should have allowed you to leave with your citation.

    Well I am appealing the case, and will let you know how it turns out


    Tow yards are not required to have 24 hour access - only normal business hours. After hours, they are permitted to charge a gate or late release fee in addition to any other fees that might be assessed.

    And I did not suggest that. I stated that if they towed the vehicle and were at their yard from sad towing that an additional cost for taking a payment would be a minimal additional charge


    A fine is levied by government as a result of a determination of some form of malfeasance. The tow fees are paid to compensate the tow company for their reasonable expenses, and the vehicle release fee is paid to the police department ostensibly for the same reason ... though, personally, I believe many agencies charge far more than is reasonable for these.
    Fair enough

    And sorry I am not skilled at using the quoting functions here

    - - - Updated - - -

    Disagreeable-Did I say that? I never said I should not pay the fine. Though you added that he was blocked for hours and it was actually twenty minutes or so, and. the persons driveway was right across the street from the restaurant and certainly asking the folks at the restaurant to make an announcement would not be out of the question. Where I work in a crowded parking area such announcements are made several times a year during the busy season. As to the idea I did not respect their driveway, maybe you missed the part that I did not see the driveway due partly to a lack of proper marking. You can call negligence but calling it lack of respect is a misnomer. Oh I did not see that you were the jerk that wants to increase fines, otherwise I would not wasted my words on you

    - - - Updated - - -

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Towed for Parking in a Red Zone

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    Well this is not what I suggested, so if we could stick to what was actually stated I would appreciate it
    You asked about public notice - I responded. There is no need no capability for a local government to broadcast to the world the ordinances in their city or to remind the motoring public of those laws that they are already expected to know (like parking in a fire lane is unlawful).

    Actually I lived there for several years and believe it or not people from other towns can access their websites as well as the local papers and other sources of public information. If you want to stand in the way of transparency I find that unfortunate.
    *I* don't stand in the way of anything. I simply told you that the LAW does not REQUIRE any state or local government to publicize any new law or ordinance. While it might be an issue if the law is unusual, in the case of something that has been codified into law since well before I was driving (probably before I was alive), it would seem unnecessary.

    Secondly it was not a fire lane. Also activists and the like have the right to create their own sites to explain the rules of the town if officials are not able to do, or are unwilling to do so so
    But, you stated it was marked as such. Was it, or was it not marked as "fire lane?"

    My question in this context was in regard to the posting of signs and painting of curbs the State law is amenable as well
    If the curb is marked by signs or painted on the curb as "fire lane" then it is a "fire lane."

    This is one example, but in no way demonstrates that all laws are understood or agreed to by the public.
    That is why we have elected representatives - to craft and amend laws. There is no possible way that the government can educate each and every person on ALL the laws in the state. It's simply not possible. Nor is it required.

    An unwillingness or reluctance to even post the law would seem to be symptomatic of a glib belief that they believe and understand the law without any evidence that that is the case.
    The law IS posted - read VC 22500. It's on the internet. Or, would you have each and every city simply repost the entire CA Vehicle Code, penal Code, and other relevant codes on their websites?

    I don't believe for one moment that everyone understands all laws. But, with the internet, it certainly is easy to track them down. For instance, I am not all that on top of elements of the state's Fish and Game Code, but I know where to look if I have a question.

    The claim that the process is working just fine is simply your opinion and not based on any facts as far as I can see
    I don't know that I said things are working "just fine" only that the law does not impose any additional mandate on state or local government to spend millions on educating the public on every new statute and those that currently exist.

    I am sure you can make the argument that this could lead to micro management by the community, but I would suggest there is a happy medium, and wide police discretion is not necessarily saving us from even more punitive measures.
    There have been periods of time when police and judicial discretion were all but eliminated - and, in some cases, the police have no discretion. There are also some agencies where they have adopted a legalistic approach where the letter of the law is to be enforced, regardless ... this eliminates discretion. One can argue whether a lack of discretion is good or bad. Yes, it might make for equal treatment ... but, is this good, or bad? If no warnings in traffic matters are permitted, then everyone gets a ticket. This is certainly "fair," but it is also a good way to get the public ticked off.

    but I do believe a community has a right to some transparency on these decisions and a right to having discretion over the nature of polices discretion - ostensibly to avoid negative economic impacts against that poppulation. But, it is an example of political will driving a policy that runs counter to common practice and, arguably, highway safety.
    Local government has control over the policies that drive local law enforcement. If they opt to compel a change in discretionary practices to reflect community mores, then so be it. It happens every day. Some matters of discretion come about as a matter of practicality (a lack of resources to deal with an issue - in some cities this could be traffic offenses, or petty thefts, or quality of life crimes). Others as a matter of political direction (not impounding cars of unlicensed drivers as it allegedly impacts a certain segment of the population in an unfair manner). And some are affected by state law (such as almost mandatory arrests in DV cases and mandatory arrests in DV restraining order violations).

    As for "transparency," California has one of the broadest sunshine laws in the US. Most everything can be obtained as a public record. But, while the law mandates transparency, it does not mandate that the government must embark on an ongoing educational campaign regarding the law.

    I made it clear the issue was your claim that increased officer discretion from police officers was saving the public from even more punitive measures, and in my opinion this answer did not address that point and instead only focused on the payment aspect which I acknowledged as relatively moot.
    Actually, it's hardly moot. Such a plan of pay-on-the-street is not some isolated activity that would occur in a theoretical vacuum. Such a policy would have to address the practical reality of the officer and the impact it would have on his safety, job performance, time considerations, etc. The problem with a great many theorists is that they are long on ideas but short on knowledge of the job which they seek to make a fundamental change to.

    On the other hand I do not have a problem with an officer whose discretion seems reasonable to the public.
    What might be termed "reasonable" is highly subjective. You and I might see the same event and each of us might have an entirely different opinion on its reasonableness.

    But if an when the sum total of such discretionary decisions seems to drift from the public interest, then I would suggest the public does have an option to limit officer discretion
    See my comments above.

    And when you say agencies who are you referring to? The police department was closed.
    The officer on the street. The office might have been closed, but the officer was there. The officer has access to phone numbers or contact information for partner agencies and NGOs that might assist people in need. I've been at this for 22 years and we've always had this capability. Help might not be readily available, and it might take some time to access, but there's usually something to do or someone to contact if necessary. Though, availability of resources can and does vary by locale.

    Well I am appealing the case, and will let you know how it turns out
    I'm curious - to whom are you appealing it?

    And I did not suggest that. I stated that if they towed the vehicle and were at their yard from sad towing that an additional cost for taking a payment would be a minimal additional charge
    But, it is not the driver who is responsible for such releases. And, since the law allows them to charge an after hours release fee, your argument is with the state legislature, not with the police, the tow operator, or even the local government.

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    Default Re: Towed for Parking in a Red Zone

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    The red marking on the far side which was somewhat visible was completely faded as I was looking back to parallel park
    How could something be "somewhat visible" and yet "completely faded"?

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    The red marking on ... the near side which I could not see looking back was brightly painted read.
    That part, you should have looked at as you approached, assuming you were using your headlights as required by law.

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    I am a bit of an activist type
    Yeah... A passive activist... (If there is such a thing).

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    Last Post: 01-06-2010, 05:54 PM
 
 
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