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  1. #11
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    Default Re: Filed CR-143 to Start an Appeal - What Happens Now

    The time to question the lack of justification of the Prima Facie limit (the speed trap law as Supra is dancing around without saying it) is in the trial. You can't bring it up on appeal if you didn't in the original trial. Appeal here is not ANOTHER de novo trial.

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Filed CR-143 to Start an Appeal - What Happens Now

    Quote Quoting That Guy
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    It would be nice to see citations of those appeals you mention. Even without that, I know of one 22350 appeal that succeeded through the ignorance of both, the defendant and the judge.... The blind leading the blind as they say. Hard to believe that an appellate judge would be as ignorant but I have learned to never say never. That does not change the fact that your case, as you presented here, has no grounds for appeal!
    I think this is where I disagree with you. I'm no lawyer and I could be totally wrong but in what little research I have done so far, it's my understanding I actually haven't presented my official/complete appeal defense yet. Form CR 142 is simply a notice of appeal, and the main purpose of CR 143 is to provide a written summary of what took place in court the day of the trial. The Brief (which I have not done yet) is where a written description of the facts and the law that applies is included. Thus my asking for any advice or pointers for writing a Brief.
    Disagree with me on what?

    On the fact that I asked you to cite the two cases you mentioned?

    Or disagree with me on my opinion as to the worthiness of an unidentified appeal?

    The case law and arguments that you provide in your brief are based on the "stated grounds for appeal". That is the foundation for what you will argue in your brief. And if that is as you described and detailed under the sections you posted, then you aren't going to file on e some grounds only to turn around and argue others.

    See, you're not reading what is being posted. You are here on an agenda... And while it makes no difference to me if you win or lose, I will not cheer you on to continue on a task that will achieve nothing.




    Quote Quoting supralover23
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    Some pertinent questions:

    1) What did the officer say during his testimony?

    2) Did he introduce the Engineering & Traffic Survey for the stretch of road where you were cited? For that matter, what road was it, and do you have a copy of the survey?

    3) Is there a transcript/recording available?

    I would still like to see your CR-142 and CR-143 forms, just in case there's something important that you haven't mentioned (what the judge said, etc). I assume the two appeals you mention are Behjat and Huffman, but if not, I'd also like to see citations of those.
    How about you just show him what you did, Supralover... Teach him how he can manipulate his proposed statement to show how the prosecution did not meet its burden. And as you can see, even if he did served the officer, he can simply complain about the officer filing anything in response and later complain about the CHP being represented during the oral arguments. Screw the real details... After all, it is more important for you to get a refund of your fine than it would be for a just and fair decision!

    Too bad your decision hasn't been published, as far as I can find. And so your only rights to bragging come via your own word... Which based on what you submitted under oath, your word isn't worth the bandwidth it occupies!

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Filed CR-143 to Start an Appeal - What Happens Now

    Quote Quoting supralover23
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    I would still like to see your CR-142 and CR-143 forms, just in case there's something important that you haven't mentioned (what the judge said, etc). I assume the two appeals you mention are Behjat and Huffman, but if not, I'd also like to see citations of those.
    Behjat would be a poor choice for a citation in this instance. If the defendant's CR-143, Item 5b is true, he introduced much of the evidence necessary to prove the elements of the offense in his own testimony. Therefore, a sufficiency of evidence argument seems weak. Without knowing more about the violation or the trial, it's hard to identify issues for appeal. Did the officer introduce a E&TS?

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Filed CR-143 to Start an Appeal - What Happens Now

    Quote Quoting That Guy
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    How about you just show him what you did, Supralover... Teach him how he can manipulate his proposed statement to show how the prosecution did not meet its burden. And as you can see, even if he did served the officer, he can simply complain about the officer filing anything in response and later complain about the CHP being represented during the oral arguments. Screw the real details... After all, it is more important for you to get a refund of your fine than it would be for a just and fair decision!

    Too bad your decision hasn't been published, as far as I can find. And so your only rights to bragging come via your own word... Which based on what you submitted under oath, your word isn't worth the bandwidth it occupies!
    Wow, being proven wrong must have really shattered your ego, huh? Not a day goes by without some sort of disparaging comment about me, my appeal, the appellate judge who decided the case...pretty much anyone or anything other than yourself! Is it really that difficult to just admit that you were wrong? Instead, here you are grasping at straws, throwing out any possible accusation that crosses your mind to try and, what? Make me feel bad? Make yourself feel better? I don't know about the latter, but the former definitely isn't happening. All it's really showing is how petty and spiteful you really are, and hopefully the rest of the community is recognizing it as well.

    1) "Teach him how he can manipulate his proposed statement to show how the prosecution did not meet its burden."
    Ummm, the proposed statement is just the recollection of what happened during the trial. Nothing more, nothing less. Show me where the manipulation took place. Oh wait, that's right, you can't. Next!

    2) "He can simply complain about the officer filing anything in response and later complain about the CHP being represented during the oral arguments."
    Again, where? Where did I complain about any of that? In the thread for my appeal, which the OP can find here, you accused me of something similar. I responded nearly three weeks ago, and you haven't been heard from there since. Hopefully it's because you realized you have no leg to stand on, but that's incongruous with what you're doing here.

    3) "Too bad your decision hasn't been published, as far as I can find. And so your only rights to bragging come via your own word..."
    Nope, I don't believe it was published either, and the deadline to request publication has passed. "Rights to bragging"? "Via your own word"? What on earth are you talking about? Are you really accusing me of lying about the decision I received? Are you really that desperate to retain some shred of hubris? Just admit that you were wrong, desist from this inane argument, and get over yourself already!

    Quote Quoting themadnorwegian
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    Behjat would be a poor choice for a citation in this instance. If the defendant's CR-143, Item 5b is true, he introduced much of the evidence necessary to prove the elements of the offense in his own testimony. Therefore, a sufficiency of evidence argument seems weak. Without knowing more about the violation or the trial, it's hard to identify issues for appeal. Did the officer introduce a E&TS?
    Yeah, agreed. I'm just trying to establish who, if anyone, introduced the speed survey, because that's the crux of any speed trap related arguments.

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Filed CR-143 to Start an Appeal - What Happens Now

    Thanks everyone for the feedback.

    Is "That Guy" always such a Peach? I bet he's a barrel of fun to hang out with on the weekends.




    Quote Quoting supralover23
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    Some pertinent questions:

    1) What did the officer say during his testimony?

    2) Did he introduce the Engineering & Traffic Survey for the stretch of road where you were cited? For that matter, what road was it, and do you have a copy of the survey?

    3) Is there a transcript/recording available?

    I would still like to see your CR-142 and CR-143 forms, just in case there's something important that you haven't mentioned (what the judge said, etc). I assume the two appeals you mention are Behjat and Huffman, but if not, I'd also like to see citations of those.
    Again, thanks so much supra. I appreciate any advice. I'm an engineer, not a lawyer!
    1.) I'll try to post my version of what the officer said at trial (Form CR-143 Item 5c) but the quick version is: he stated he visually observed me at 60, lidar'ed me at 57, pulled me over and let me leave based on my promise to appear in court. He mentioned he was trained in lidar, he mentioned the light traffic and slightly cloudy weather, and, yes, he did refer to the engineering survey.
    2.) Yes, the officer introduced (if by "introduced" you mean he had it in his hand and referred to it) the traffic survey. Winchester Rd in Temecula. Yes, I obtained a copy prior to court.
    3.) I don't know that there is a transcript or recording available but it is my understanding that it doesn't matter any more. When I submitted my CR-142, I elected to provide my own 'proposed statement'.

    Okay, I will post my 142/143. I did not write down anything the judge said because CR-143 did not ask me to do so. But what he said was he partially agreed with me but mostly did not and he said that if I was going over the posted SL, I am presumed to be unsafe. He said I may have been safe at that moment but later on down the road, my speed could be unsafe. You are correct about the two appeals I am referring to.


    Quote Quoting flyingron
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    The time to question the lack of justification of the Prima Facie limit (the speed trap law as Supra is dancing around without saying it) is in the trial. You can't bring it up on appeal if you didn't in the original trial. Appeal here is not ANOTHER de novo trial.
    Understood. I am not questioning the P.F. limit. My defense now, as it was in the trial is that I did not violate any portion of the Basic Speed Law.


    Quote Quoting themadnorwegian
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    Behjat would be a poor choice for a citation in this instance. If the defendant's CR-143, Item 5b is true, he introduced much of the evidence necessary to prove the elements of the offense in his own testimony. Therefore, a sufficiency of evidence argument seems weak. Without knowing more about the violation or the trial, it's hard to identify issues for appeal. Did the officer introduce a E&TS?
    Uh oh. Behjat (and Huffman) was my plan! I'll post the CR 142/143 if it will help. Yes, the officer had with him and referred to the traffic survey.



    Thanks everyone. Much appreciated.

    - - - Updated - - -


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Here is what I submitted on form CR-143 Item 5c.


    CR-143, Item 5c
    (where I summarize what the officer said in court the day of the trial):

    On April XXth, 2013, Officer <Jones> testified in court that on November XXth, 2012 he was on duty in full uniform and that he saw a white sedan traveling eastbound on Winchester Road in Temecula California in front of the Promenade Mall. He stated that he visually observed the vehicle traveling at about 60 miles per hour, where the posted speed limit is 40 miles per hour. He used a lidar gun to measure the speed of the vehicle where he obtained a reading of 57 miles per hour. The officer stated that the weather was slightly cloudy but dry and that the traffic condition was light. The officer stated that the posted speed limit was determined by an engineering survey. He also mentioned he was formerly trained in the use of lidar. He pulled the vehicle over near the mall east entrance where he cited the driver, Mr. <Smith>, who was released on his promise to appear in court.

    Here's a link to my filed forms, RI-AP001 (Same as CR-142) and CR-143. http://s8.photobucket.com/user/ptato...?sort=9&page=1 Thanks.

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Filed CR-143 to Start an Appeal - What Happens Now

    Understood. I am not questioning the P.F. limit. My defense now, as it was in the trial is that I did not violate any portion of the Basic Speed Law.
    Exceeding the prima facie limit is a violation of the basic speed law. THat's what "prima facie" means. It's the speed you're assumed "at its face" to be unsafe without them having to show any specifics. You'll not win,

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Filed CR-143 to Start an Appeal - What Happens Now

    Quote Quoting flyingron
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    Exceeding the prima facie limit is a violation of the basic speed law. THat's what "prima facie" means. It's the speed you're assumed "at its face" to be unsafe without them having to show any specifics. You'll not win,
    Thanks. You said that on page one, to which I responded: "I understand what you are saying but I wonder then, when would CVC 22351(b) ever apply by that reasoning?". I'd still like to know the answer to this question.

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Filed CR-143 to Start an Appeal - What Happens Now

    I'd be very interested to see what an appellate court says regarding the insufficient evidence claim, but from what you've posted, it seems to me like you might have a better chance attacking the validity of the engineering survey. When you say that "the officer stated that the posted speed limit was determined by an engineering survey", is there any more detail than that? Was the engineering survey a certified copy, or was it the original survey? Could you post the survey that you obtained?

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Filed CR-143 to Start an Appeal - What Happens Now

    Quote Quoting supralover23
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    I'd be very interested to see what an appellate court says regarding the insufficient evidence claim, but from what you've posted, it seems to me like you might have a better chance attacking the validity of the engineering survey. When you say that "the officer stated that the posted speed limit was determined by an engineering survey", is there any more detail than that? Was the engineering survey a certified copy, or was it the original survey? Could you post the survey that you obtained?
    Thanks supra. I have added the ETS's here: http://s8.photobucket.com/user/ptato...?sort=9&page=1

    These three pages is what I received from the City. I think the area I was in when "clocked" was page 45 (Mall West to Mall East) and I say this because when I pulled over after being "lit-up", I pulled into the Mall east entrance (Although the ticket reads that the violation location was at "Mall East" which I really think should be Mall West)

    Thanks.

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Filed CR-143 to Start an Appeal - What Happens Now

    Okay, but when the officer mentioned the survey during his testimony, what exactly did he say? The officer has to produce either the original survey, or a certified copy of the survey. Did he have that?

    Now, I'm not sure about the particulars of what "produce" means; maybe some of the others can offer some input. Does the officer need to show it to the judge and/or the defendant to ensure that it's a valid copy? Does it need to be entered into evidence as an exhibit? I just don't know.

    Furthermore, and I'm not sure about this either, you may have forfeited your right to appeal on the grounds that the survey the officer had wasn't the original or a certified copy by not objecting when the officer referred to it.

    Hopefully some of the others can chime in on both counts.

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