Results 1 to 10 of 18

Hybrid View

  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    7

    Question Towed from Disabled Space with No Vertical Sign at Apartment Complex

    My question involves a traffic citation from the state of: Texas, specifically Austin.

    I was visiting a friend in Austin, and pulled into her apartment complex at approximately 2:30-3:00am. I parked in a poorly marked disabled space. The pavement marking was faded and semi-covered in runoff, and the vertical sign had been removed. There was also no marked aisle to indicate that the space was for disabled persons. All other disabled spaces in the area looked as if they had been restriped within the past year, and had vertical signs, though none had aisles either.

    This is a picture of the space at approximately 11:30am.



    I called the apartment complex and asked to be reimbursed for the tow, as they were not meeting current local, federal, or state design guidelines. They stated that there had been a rule change and that they were not required to have vertical signage, only a sign or a pavement marking. I do not believe this to be the case, but I must be able to prove it in a tow hearing if they do not agree to reimburse me.

    Because of the apartment complex's age, it is not regulated by the FHA design guidelines. It is also not covered under the ADA unless the parking spaces are considered public access. Since there are no parking restrictions other than the handicap spaces, this may in fact be the case, but I do not want this to be my sole argument.

    However, the parking lot looks as though it was resurfaced at one time. Under current Austin building codes, this would require it to be made accessible per ICC/ANSI A117.1-2009. I can only assume that the building code at the time of the resurfacing would have required it to be in compliance with a similar code. As there was originally a sign present, I believe this to be the case. However, I am still under the burden of proof and will need to prove this by determining a) if and when the parking lot was resurfaced, as well as b) the applicable building code at the time.


    My questions are:
    1. Could the parking lot be covered by ADA regulations as a public space?
    2. What would I need to do in order to request maintenance records for the complex?
    3. Where can I find a description building code changes for Austin, Texas?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    18,340

    Default Re: Towed from Disabled Space with No Vertical Sign at Apartment Complex-Texas

    Frankly, I don't see that any of your points or questions have any relevance.

    I see the handicapped insignia on the ground in your photo.

    I would have not parked there.

    But you did.

    I don't see you winning your money back no matter what you do.

    But good luck if you want to pursue it.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    7

    Exclamation Re: Towed from Disabled Space with No Vertical Sign at Apartment Complex-Texas

    Building codes like ANSI A117.1 and ADA require vertical signage and access aisles. City building codes for existing buildings require the lot to comply with current codes if it is altered, such as in a resurfacing. If the lot is governed by these codes because it was resurfaced, the complex is required to mark their spaces accordingly by Texas law in order to have people towed from them. If they do not, the tow is illegal because the space is not properly marked.

    Also, the reason for vertical signage requirements is that pavement makings can be covered by run off or snow, whereas vertical signs cannot be. They also do not fade. In my case, I pulled in late at night and the pavement marking was not readily visible. Note that the photo was taken in broad daylight, not 2am, as will as within 2 ft of the marking, not the 15 ft line of sight from behind a steering wheel that a driver would have.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    18,340

    Default Re: Towed from Disabled Space with No Vertical Sign at Apartment Complex-Texas

    The post a photo taken at 2AM from the driver seat and let's see what the insignia looks like.

    I don't know what you mean by a "tow hearing" but if you have to sue the apartment complex in small claims court for your towing fee you'll need to show the judge that the insignia was invisible to you at the time you pulled into the space.

    Codes and statutes might supplement that. But without that, the codes and statutes might only put the judge to sleep.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    LA LA Land
    Posts
    9,170

    Default Re: Towed from Disabled Space with No Vertical Sign at Apartment Complex-Texas

    Quote Quoting pitcher8811
    View Post
    Building codes like ANSI A117.1 and ADA require vertical signage and access aisles. City building codes for existing buildings require the lot to comply with current codes if it is altered, such as in a resurfacing. If the lot is governed by these codes because it was resurfaced, the complex is required to mark their spaces accordingly by Texas law in order to have people towed from them. If they do not, the tow is illegal because the space is not properly marked.
    Did you not already answer this question in the negative in your first post? When you stated that it is not covered under the ADA unless the parking spaces are considered public access?

    Quote Quoting pitcher8811
    Because of the apartment complex's age, it is not regulated by the FHA design guidelines. It is also not covered under the ADA unless the parking spaces are considered public access.
    And how can they be considered public access if they are on private property?

    Quote Quoting pitcher8811
    Since there are no parking restrictions other than the handicap spaces, this may in fact be the case, but I do not want this to be my sole argument.
    You can call it your sole argument but in reality, it is no argument. It is inconceivable that a parking lot designated for residents of an apartment complex would by any stretch be considered "public access" which means anyone can simply drove in and park.

    Quote Quoting pitcher8811
    View Post
    Also, the reason for vertical signage requirements is that pavement makings can be covered by run off or snow, whereas vertical signs cannot be. They also do not fade. In my case, I pulled in late at night and the pavement marking was not readily visible. Note that the photo was taken in broad daylight, not 2am, as will as within 2 ft of the marking, not the 15 ft line of sight from behind a steering wheel that a driver would have.
    In your case, it is presumed that you have working headlights when you pulled into this spot at 2am in the morning, did you not? My guess is if you could not see a pavement marking with your headlights on as you pulled in, then you are not likely to see a sign that is posted 7 feet high on a 2 inch post.

    Find the requirement that properly classifies this lot, find the code that requires them to mark a space with a sign in addition to a marking, and you're half way there. If and when you can find a code section that makes it their obligation to post a sign otherwise they would be held liable for towing your car then you're home free. Otherwise, simply establishing they are in violation of whatever code might subject them to a citation by code enforcement, but it is not always a guaranteed route to a refund of towing fees.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    7

    Lightbulb Re: Towed from Disabled Space with No Vertical Sign at Apartment Complex-Texas

    a) Public access can be on private property. Mall parking lots are private property, but they are considered public access because the public is invited to go to the mall to conduct business. Apartment complexes get the same kind of treatment if they do not post signs otherwise. Anyone could park in their lot to solicit door to door unless otherwise posted. Any office space/parking must meet ADA regulations because the public must go/park there to do business. In that same realm of thought, any area open to the public, like a pool that the apartment sells memberships to, must meet ADA requirements. What is covered under the ADA in these circumstances is complicated. Hence the question.

    b) This pavement marking was 1) covered by runoff and 2) no longer contrasting with its background. Any disabled makings on signage must contrast with its background. That's why you see blue makings on light gray concrete and white on black asphalt, or blue makings on a white sign instead of silver makings. And as stated, there is no building code in the US in the last 20 years that permits pavement makings to demarcate disabled parking. All of them since ANSI A117.1-1986 require vertical signage because it is more conspicuous.

    In your line of thinking, building owners could mark handicap spaces as discreetly as they wanted, which is inequitable to vehicle operators. Vehicle operators are generally only expected to follow conspicuous signage because they are operating a vehicle, not playing Where's Waldo. Think of it as running a stop sign mostly obscured by a tree and the cop telling you that you should have noticed the pole.

    c) I have found the proper codes and regulations. Hence the questions on proving the timing and regulation of the resurfacing.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    34

    Default Re: Towed from Disabled Space with No Vertical Sign at Apartment Complex-Texas

    Sir, how much did you end up paying for the tow?

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    OH10
    Posts
    17,019

    Default Re: Towed from Disabled Space with No Vertical Sign at Apartment Complex-Texas

    Not to be blunt, how do they know you did not plow the HC sign over, when you pulled in?

    1. Sponsored Links
       

Similar Threads

  1. Disabilities and Accommodation: Disabled with Disabled Plate and Apartment Complex Not Allowing Me to Park
    By rmgef in forum Landlord-Tenant Law
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 01-10-2013, 06:41 PM
  2. Towing: Predatory Towing from Apartment Complex Handicap Space
    By Greygramma in forum Moving Violations, Parking and Traffic Tickets
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 04-10-2011, 08:18 PM
  3. Towing: Car Towed from Apartment Complex
    By S99 in forum Moving Violations, Parking and Traffic Tickets
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 12-30-2009, 10:39 AM
  4. Towing: Car Towed from Apartment Complex
    By jesser in forum Moving Violations, Parking and Traffic Tickets
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 09-25-2008, 05:37 PM
  5. Towing: Car Towed from Apartment Complex
    By anavrint in forum Moving Violations, Parking and Traffic Tickets
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 10-24-2007, 09:59 AM
 
 
Sponsored Links

Legal Help, Information and Resources