Results 1 to 10 of 10

Hybrid View

  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    3

    Default Rolling Right Turn on Red, Camera Ticket for Failure to Stop

    My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: California

    I made a rolling stop on a right turn on a red light, the cameras flashed, and received a ticket in the mail a few weeks later for $500. However, after doing some research, here are a couple things that stood out:

    1. I was charged with "CVC 21453(a) Red Signal-Vehicular Responsibilities." This is the same as running a red light going straight. I should be charged with CVC 21453(b) instead, which applies to right turns. I've read that California automatically charges any red light violation with (a) because it generates much more revenue.

    2. I am not the registered owner of the car (my father is, and I'm borrowing from him). I had a friend who did exactly this, and his mom went to court, said the driver was not her, and immediately got dismissed. However, the envelope did come to my address and not my father's, so I assume they have legal documentation connecting me to the car.

    3. I did not receive any photos of my violation in the envelope, which I heard is common practice. Is this significant?

    It seems like fighting point 1 is a sure way to get my charge reduced, but point 2 has the potential to dismiss the whole case. Any advice is appreciated.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    19,901

    Default Re: Rolling Right Turn on Red, Camera, Charged for Running Red, Also Not My Car. Opti

    Rolling a red is RUNNING a red. Section (a) is your violation. It says STOP AT THE RED unless you do what is in (b). You are ALWAYS required to stop at a red. (b) just lets you continue on if you yield to opposing traffic and it is not otherwise prohibited.

    If the ticket was sent to you, then it makes no difference who owned the car.
    If the ticket was sent to your father as owner of the vehicle, he's free to follow the procedure on the ticket to show it was not him driving (with or without ratting you out). If you have the ticket in your name, it would appear he has already ratted you out.
    ]

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    8,006

    Default Re: Rolling Right Turn on Red, Camera, Charged for Running Red, Also Not My Car. Opti

    Quote Quoting throw1331
    View Post
    2. I am not the registered owner of the car (my father is, and I'm borrowing from him). I had a friend who did exactly this, and his mom went to court, said the driver was not her, and immediately got dismissed. However, the envelope did come to my address and not my father's, so I assume they have legal documentation connecting me to the car.
    If the car is legally registered to dad and there is no connection to you, I'd be willing to bet dad gave you up. They probably contacted him about it and he said,
    "Nope, not me. That's my son."

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    LA LA Land
    Posts
    9,170

    Default Re: Rolling Right Turn on Red, Camera, Charged for Running Red, Also Not My Car. Opti

    Quote Quoting throw1331
    View Post
    I made a rolling stop on a right turn on a red light, the cameras flashed, and received a ticket in the mail a few weeks later for $500. However, after doing some research, here are a couple things that stood out:

    1. I was charged with "CVC 21453(a) Red Signal-Vehicular Responsibilities." This is the same as running a red light going straight. I should be charged with CVC 21453(b) instead, which applies to right turns. I've read that California automatically charges any red light violation with (a) because it generates much more revenue.
    For starters, there is no such thing as a "rolling stop"... Think about it, it defies logic because if you did stop then you were not rolling or if you were rolling then you never stopped. Second, and while it maybe true that you've read that, and with the fine for subsection (a) being $490 whereas for subsection (b), it is $238, of course it generates more revenue... But that is not why you were cited for (a). You were cited for subsection (a) because you violated subsection (a) when you rolled through your turn instead of stopping. In other words, when you failed to "stop at the marked limit line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an indication to proceed is shown". Now, just because subsection (b) refers to "...after stopping as required by subdivision (a)..." does not mean its a cheaper substitute to subsection (a).

    Quote Quoting throw1331
    View Post
    2. I am not the registered owner of the car (my father is, and I'm borrowing from him). I had a friend who did exactly this, and his mom went to court, said the driver was not her, and immediately got dismissed. However, the envelope did come to my address and not my father's, so I assume they have legal documentation connecting me to the car.
    Does the citation have a court appearance date shown on it along with a Court Name and location? If so, its time to stop questioning "if" and to start taking action.

    Quote Quoting throw1331
    View Post
    I did not receive any photos of my violation in the envelope, which I heard is common practice. Is this significant?
    I don't know where you heard that its common practice; if they no longer need to identify you by photograph and have an affidavit from somebody saying its you, then... Pictures aren't needed.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    3

    Default Re: Rolling Right Turn on Red, Camera, Charged for Running Red, Also Not My Car. Opti

    People seemed to be caught up on the fact that I used the term "rolling stop." I didn't mean to sound like that's different than running a red, I was just describing what I did.

    I know I ran a red. The distinction I made between (a) and (b) is that: (a) pertains running a red driving straight through an intersection, where (b) is for running a red light on a right turn. In other words, is running a red the same penalty as failing to to stop before a right turn on a red?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Quoting That Guy
    View Post
    Does the citation have a court appearance date shown on it along with a Court Name and location? If so, its time to stop questioning "if" and to start taking action.
    No, it's asking if I want to pay or contest. I want to take action, that's what I'm doing on this forum, to find advice on the best action to take.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    38,867

    Default Re: Rolling Right Turn on Red, Camera, Charged for Running Red, Also Not My Car. Opti

    Quote Quoting throw1331
    View Post
    People seemed to be caught up on the fact that I used the term "rolling stop." I didn't mean to sound like that's different than running a red, I was just describing what I did.

    I know I ran a red. The distinction I made between (a) and (b) is that: (a) pertains running a red driving straight through an intersection, where (b) is for running a red light on a right turn. In other words, is running a red the same penalty as failing to to stop before a right turn on a red?

    - - - Updated - - -



    No, it's asking if I want to pay or contest. I want to take action, that's what I'm doing on this forum, to find advice on the best action to take.
    You are wrong:


    21453. (a) A driver facing a steady circular red signal alone shall stop at a marked limit line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an indication to proceed is shown, except as provided in subdivision (b).
    (b) Except when a sign is in place prohibiting a turn, a driver, after stopping as required by subdivision (a), facing a steady circular red signal, may turn right, or turn left from a one-way street onto a one-way street. A driver making that turn shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within an adjacent crosswalk and to any vehicle that has approached or is approaching so closely as to constitute an immediate hazard to the driver, and shall continue to yield the right-of-way to that vehicle until the driver can proceed with reasonable safety.
    a is restrictive law addressing the requirement to stop at a red light. b is a permissive statute that allows you to turn right on a red light (and as specifically noted in b) AFTER stopping at the red light as addressed in a. You did not stop; the violation is of a.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    LA LA Land
    Posts
    9,170

    Default Re: Rolling Right Turn on Red, Camera, Charged for Running Red, Also Not My Car. Opti

    Quote Quoting throw1331
    View Post
    People seemed to be caught up on the fact that I used the term "rolling stop." I didn't mean to sound like that's different than running a red, I was just describing what I did.
    I disagree... I think people get caught up in trying to justify their violation(s) by claiming some sort of revenue scheme. But that's neither here nor there. To answer your question, OK, so lets use your terminology instead of getting caught up on whatever...

    Quote Quoting throw1331
    View Post
    In other words, is running a red the same penalty as failing to to stop before a right turn on a red?
    You already answered your own question:

    Quote Quoting throw1331
    View Post
    I know I ran a red.
    Exactly... You ran a red light regardless of what you did afterwards. You crossed the limit line without stopping. That is a violation of subsection (a).

    Quote Quoting throw1331
    View Post
    No, it's asking if I want to pay or contest.
    Pay to who, or contest by notifying who?

    If its "pay the court" and/or the "court clerk" AND/OR "notify the court" and/or the "court clerk" you want to contest, then its a legitimate citation. Otherwise, if it directs you to contact the police department then it may not be a legitimate citation.

    Quote Quoting throw1331
    View Post
    I want to take action, that's what I'm doing on this forum, to find advice on the best action to take.
    Lighten up... You seemed to be under the impression that you had a choice between two options and it was only a matter of deciding which was better, a total dismissal by way of your "point 2" or a HUGE reduction by way of your "point 1". Neither of those actions are viable actions and hence neither can be acted upon. The only way you can take "action" is by contacting the court.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    3

    Default Re: Rolling Right Turn on Red, Camera Ticket for Failure to Stop

    Pay to who, or contest by notifying who?

    If its "pay the court" and/or the "court clerk" AND/OR "notify the court" and/or the "court clerk" you want to contest, then its a legitimate citation. Otherwise, if it directs you to contact the police department then it may not be a legitimate citation.
    It's to the court.

    So it seems like I don't have a case. If I fight, is there a worthwhile chance that I will win? Or should I just bay the fine?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    LA LA Land
    Posts
    9,170

    Default Re: Rolling Right Turn on Red, Camera Ticket for Failure to Stop

    Quote Quoting throw1331
    View Post
    It's to the court.

    So it seems like I don't have a case. If I fight, is there a worthwhile chance that I will win? Or should I just bay the fine?
    Your citation was issued initially, I presume, as a red light camera ticket. Subsequently your information was provided to the court or the issuing law enforcement agency. At which point it was then re-issued on another notice to appear. This reason alone changes the case considerably. So while proving the elements of the offense would still be based upon photographic evidence, your identity was revealed by affidavit. Additionally, some of the restrictions that would normally apply in red light camera cases with regards to the original notice that is issued to the registered owner of the vehicle do not apply in this case for the same obvious reason as above...

    And since I usually can find little to no defense for those cases where the notice is issued to the registered owner, and your case being even more limited than those, I see an even slimmer chance you'd have any sort of chance of prevailing. Some people may rely on the slight possibility that the citing officer may fail to submit a declaration or may fail to appear at a trial; in this case, and for most agencies that have a RLC system under their jurisdiction, the citing officer assigned to handle these types of citations is dedicated to RLC cases and only RLC cases. And so, (a) issuing these citation, (b) submitting testimony and findings in a trial by declaration case or (c) appearing to testify in person at an in court trial case are his three primary duties... I don't see even a remote possibility he might slack on any of the three.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Rolling Right Turn on Red, Camera, Charged for Running Red, Also Not My Car. Opti

    Quote Quoting That Guy
    View Post
    if they no longer need to identify you by photograph and have an affidavit from somebody
    This ...

    is a fantastic leap of Faith for You, Guy ....

    I can not believe You would admit that the prosecution of the Case
    hinges on a WITNESS testifying under Penalty of Perjury...
    that the OP was the Operator ...

    Bravo ....!!!!

    1. Sponsored Links
       

Similar Threads

  1. Lights, Signs and Traffic Controls: Contesting a Ticket for a Rolling Stop at a Stop Sign
    By theheman in forum Moving Violations, Parking and Traffic Tickets
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 03-05-2012, 12:08 PM
  2. Lights, Signs and Traffic Controls: Red Light Camera (Rolling Right Turn) Ticket
    By blueice813 in forum Moving Violations, Parking and Traffic Tickets
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 09-26-2011, 03:15 PM
  3. Lights, Signs and Traffic Controls: Rolling Stop During a Right Turn
    By Joe Dirt in forum Moving Violations, Parking and Traffic Tickets
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 09-10-2010, 04:38 PM
  4. Lights, Signs and Traffic Controls: First Ticket - Failure to Stop at Right Turn
    By m1k3ines in forum Moving Violations, Parking and Traffic Tickets
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 09-25-2009, 11:17 AM
  5. Lights, Signs and Traffic Controls: San Diego Photo Ticket From Camera Operator Fishing For Evidence For Failure To Stop
    By JohnF in forum Moving Violations, Parking and Traffic Tickets
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 03-03-2008, 11:27 PM
 
 
Sponsored Links

Legal Help, Information and Resources