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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
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    21

    Default Can You Defend Against a Speeding Ticket by Arguing that the Signs are Unfair

    My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: CA

    This is my first post here, so please forgive me if I'm making any obvious mistakes.

    I'm in my forties, and prior to 2012 I had only had one moving violation in my life (speeding ticket over ten years ago). Never had an accident. Late last year I got a speeding ticket in Mono County, California. I paid it and completed traffic school a few days ago. On Friday night I was driving on the same road for the second time ever, paying attention to all posted signs because I didn't want to get another ticket. It was very dark (no moon), sub-zero temperatures, and quite a bit of snow on the ground. Clear skies, no wind. Quite a bit of traffic because it was the beginning of a long weekend. Many trucks on the road.

    I was driving southbound on a stretch of US 395 where the default speed limit is 65. As I approached the town of Bridgeport, CA, I saw a sign for 55 and shortly after one for 45, so I slowed down accordingly. As I was leaving town I saw the lights of a police officer behind me, so I pulled over. The officer said that I was over the speed limit, which was a complete surprise to me. He also said that I appeared to have slammed on the brakes when I saw him, which was not true; I was completely unaware of him until he lit up behind me. He pulled me over between a 45 and a 55 sign leaving town.

    It turns out there is a stretch of 1/2 mile where the speed limit is 30. I measured it with my odometer several times on my way back yesterday. There are two signs related to the speed limit coming into town, none in town:





    On the half-mile stretch of 30 there are no stop signs or traffic lights, no speed bumps or rumble strips, no flashing lights, etc. The crosswalks are very faint, hard to see at night. The impression I get is that they don't want to slow people down, instead they want people to go over the speed limit so they can issue tickets. The second sign above is not even properly pointed towards the road in my opinion, and it would be really easy to miss (for example if you were driving three seconds behind a truck).

    The officer said he clocked me at 44 coming into town (whatever that means for a 1/2 mile town) and when he pulled me over near the 55 sign he said I had sped up to 48. I don't even think I was going that fast, and there were other cars and trucks on the road. Is it possible he got the wrong car? I drive a relatively nice car, if that means anything. He wrote me up for 40 on a 30 zone.

    During the same night and on my way back I saw an unusual number of patrol cars looking for people speeding. When I was driving 55 on a 55 zone earlier that night a car tailgated me for a while, then passed me brusquely over a double yellow line and tailed the car in front of me. I saw it was a police SUV. It seemed like it was trying to get the car ahead to speed. After a minute or so the car hadn't accelerated, and the police SUV made an unsignaled u-turn and went back on its way.

    I really want to fight this ticket on a matter of principle. I try really hard to keep a clean record, and I'm afraid of getting a speeding ticket every time I drive on that road (I'm 2 for 2 in two months). The problem is I don't want to have to show up in court at Mono County during a weekday. What can I do? I'm willing to spend some money on this.

    Thanks in advance.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
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    Snohomish, WA
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    1,588

    Default Re: Can You Defend Against a Speeding Ticket by Arguing that the Signs are Unfair

    You have not presented a valid defense. There are signs, which you missed. Unless you can prove that the speed limit signs were snowed over, then you really don't have any prayer of getting a dismissal. And if the signs were snowed over, then 40 MPH was likely an unsafe speed.... so you're probably up the proverbial creek without a paddle.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
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    21

    Default Re: Can You Defend Against a Speeding Ticket by Arguing that the Signs are Unfair

    That wasn't my original title, it was edited. I presented a number of facts. For one, I'm not even sure that I was going 40. I felt I was going slower, and that the officer may have confused me with someone else. I know that I obeyed every sign I saw.

    It seems to me that half a mile of a 30 zone set up like that in the middle of a freeway with a speed limit of 65 is designed to give people tickets. If it were for safety there would be many other road engineering features which are present in many other towns and cities in California: flashing lights, digital "Your Speed" signs that tell you to slow down, rumble strips, stop signs, speed bumps, etc. *NONE* of those can be found at Bridgeport.

    Can I question the position accuracy of the police radar? How does he know that I was within that 1/2 mile stretch when he clocked me? If he was sitting in the middle of the town, he clocked me driving into town but cannot know my exact position. When he tailed me we were leaving town, and he pulled me over near the 55 mph sign.

    By the way, it was a clear night and there was no snow on the road, only what you see in the picture.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    California
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    20,594

    Default Re: Can You Defend Against a Speeding Ticket by Arguing that the Signs are Unfair

    Quote Quoting climber
    View Post
    That wasn't my original title, it was edited. I presented a number of facts. For one, I'm not even sure that I was going 40. I felt I was going slower, and that the officer may have confused me with someone else. I know that I obeyed every sign I saw.
    How do you know you obeyed every sign when you admit you do not know how fast you were going? By your own statement here, you COULD have been going 40 or more.

    It seems to me that half a mile of a 30 zone set up like that in the middle of a freeway with a speed limit of 65 is designed to give people tickets.
    It is no longer a "freeway" when you have cross streets and stop lights, and the maximum speed tends to drop to 55 MPH. Plus, I saw at least one sign indicating a 30 MPH zone was ahead.

    If it were for safety there would be many other road engineering features which are present in many other towns and cities in California: flashing lights, digital "Your Speed" signs that tell you to slow down, rumble strips, stop signs, speed bumps, etc. *NONE* of those can be found at Bridgeport.
    Speed bumps wouldn't happen at all. Stop signs, flashing lights, and other assorted things can only be accomplished with the complicity of CalTrans on a state or US highway, and believe you me, that AIN'T an easy thing to do!

    Besides, if the roadway is properly posted, why should they go through all the extra effort when there is no legal requirement to do so?

    Can I question the position accuracy of the police radar?
    If you know how to do this, sure. Though you might have to pay for expert testimony (which will likely be more than the cost of the citation).

    How does he know that I was within that 1/2 mile stretch when he clocked me? If he was sitting in the middle of the town, he clocked me driving into town but cannot know my exact position.
    That is a question you can ask him on cross examination. Questions regarding his line of sight and observation of your vehicle are certainly valid lines of questioning.

    When he tailed me we were leaving town, and he pulled me over near the 55 mph sign.
    If he tailed you and you were going over the posted speed limit, then he could hit you for VC 22350. If cited for 22350 then you can make an argument that your speed was safe for the conditions. It might be tough to make at night and in sub zero (i.e. icy - by your description) conditions, but you can try.

    And as for this being intentional to bring money to the county, understand that Mono County would receive about $5.25 from your citation. After taking into account gas and the officer's salary and benefits, that would e a money losing proposition.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    CT & IL
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    5,273

    Default Re: Can You Defend Against a Speeding Ticket by Arguing that the Signs are Unfair

    Quote Quoting climber
    View Post
    . The problem is I don't want to have to show up in court at Mono County during a weekday.

    Thanks in advance.
    If you are unwilling to go to court at the location where the case would be heard then your options are pretty limited and straight forward, yes?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
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    21

    Default Re: Can You Defend Against a Speeding Ticket by Arguing that the Signs are Unfair

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    How do you know you obeyed every sign when you admit you do not know how fast you were going? By your own statement here, you COULD have been going 40 or more.
    I said that I made a point to obey every sign I saw. I don't remember if I saw that particular sign or not, but I was very alert and trying very hard to not violate any speed limits. I'm not sure I was going 40 when the officer stopped me, which was between a 45 and a 55. I cannot know the exact speed I was going at every point in time during my journey because that would require looking at the speedometer and not the road.

    It is no longer a "freeway" when you have cross streets and stop lights, and the maximum speed tends to drop to 55 MPH. Plus, I saw at least one sign indicating a 30 MPH zone was ahead.
    Of course. It *was* a freeway outside of town. I slowed down from less than 65 to below the speed limit for every sign I saw.

    Besides, if the roadway is properly posted, why should they go through all the extra effort when there is no legal requirement to do so?
    To keep people safe. The reason for a speed limit is to keep people safe, not to comply with the law. If for example it turns out that too many people miss the only sign that's outside of town, and if it's not placed in a particularly good place, then the city could be at fault. If the city is issuing many more tickets than other comparable cities, then there is an urban planning problem. Bridgeport is the only town that I drove through that night that had no stop signs or traffic lights of any kind. Preventing speeding in the first place is safer than trying to prevent repeat speeding by issuing citations. This is especially true if the majority of the people ticketed don't pass through this town often, and if most people who speed are not ticketed.

    Though you might have to pay for expert testimony (which will likely be more than the cost of the citation).
    This is not about saving money.

    If he tailed you and you were going over the posted speed limit, then he could hit you for VC 22350. If cited for 22350 then you can make an argument that your speed was safe for the conditions. It might be tough to make at night and in sub zero (i.e. icy - by your description) conditions, but you can try.
    It wasn't icy. There was very low humidity and there hadn't been any precipitation in at least a week. It's the high desert, so it gets cold quickly after dark. There was good visibility, but the city itself was very dark. You can see in the picture that there is no ice or snow on the roads. Yesterday I drove through Bridgeport and shot a video with mounted camera. I'd be happy to posted here and see what people think.

    By the way, the handwritten citation does say "22350 VC - speed excess posted 30 mph." Shouldn't that be 22349?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    California
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    20,594

    Default Re: Can You Defend Against a Speeding Ticket by Arguing that the Signs are Unfair

    22349 would be for exceeding 65 MPH. You were cited for exceeding the posted speed limit - the basic speed law. Hence, the citation for 22350. This allows you to try and argue that your speed was NOT unsafe for the conditions. You can also seek any road surveys that might justify that speed limit through discovery.

    Since money seems to be no object for you, then I would suggest you hire an attorney to make your case for you.

    Oh, and as I mentioned, Cal Trans is very reluctant to start adding things to their highways. If they have snow and ice, they are not going to want to put dots in the road that will get scraped off by plows, or bumps in the road that are almost always claimed to be the source of vehicle damage. Flashing lights can be as much of a distraction as they are an aid and unless there have been a high number of collisions in the area it is unlikely that the state will go through the expense of erecting and maintaining warning devices. Stop signs or stop lights may not be feasible nor deemed necessary. Usually such things are erected based upon reports involving collision statistics. if the stats aren't there, the state is unlikely to see the erection of such things as warranted. But, that is an issue you can talk to the state of California about.

  8. #8
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    Jan 2012
    Location
    Silicon Valley
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    532

    Default Re: Can You Defend Against a Speeding Ticket by Arguing that the Signs are Unfair

    Quote Quoting climber
    View Post
    I really want to fight this ticket on a matter of principle. I try really hard to keep a clean record, and I'm afraid of getting a speeding ticket every time I drive on that road (I'm 2 for 2 in two months). The problem is I don't want to have to show up in court at Mono County during a weekday. What can I do? I'm willing to spend some money on this.
    How did the officer measure your speed? California has a specific set of laws that say when a speed limit is a prima facie limit, and the officer measures your speed using radar or laser, then the limit must be justified by an engineering survey, plus some other additional requirements. If you can't spend time in Mono County on a weekday and you're willing to spend money on this, then I'd talk to a lawyer who handles these cases in Mono County. If you want to handle this yourself, you'll have to do more research and potentially be willing to show up in court on a weekday.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
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    21

    Default Re: Can You Defend Against a Speeding Ticket by Arguing that the Signs are Unfair

    Thanks. I was hoping that someone on this forum could recommend a lawyer, or at least point me to the right place to find one. Google doesn't help very much. I've contacted a couple that I found via their websites but received no response so far.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
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    1,991

    Default Re: Can You Defend Against a Speeding Ticket by Arguing that the Signs are Unfair

    If you want to find a lawyer start by asking your more lead-footed friends they might know a good one in the area, that is how I found a lawyer to handle my s/speeding in a school zone/parking on pavement ticket.

    You will probably still pay a fine but the objective is to avoid points/insurance

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