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  1. #1

    Default How to Challenge Automatic Ticketing Systems

    My question involves criminal law for the state of: Ohio

    If a town implements an automated ticketing system, how can you protect yourself from getting tickets unjustly? If I feel I have been a victim of this, can I challenge it? There are tones of books telling you how to fight tickets in court (asking the Officer about the calibrating of his targeting system, etc). However, how can I challenge something that is a machine? I feel this system is put in place to just generate extra revenue and not for the benefit of the community.

    What should I do?

  2. #2
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    Default Re: How to Challenge Automatic Ticketing Systems

    Are you talking about red light/speed cameras? We chased them out of our town by lobbying town council. Numerous nasty resident phone calls, people intentionally parking in front of the road side mounted units and people calling the police dept. and telling them to get it off their property, made council end the practice before the contract for the units went into full scale use.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: How to Challenge Automatic Ticketing Systems

    Quote Quoting isitlegalmk
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    If a town implements an automated ticketing system, how can you protect yourself from getting tickets unjustly?
    If the ticket was unjustly issued, then you should be able to show why it is unjust, unfair or issued in error at which point the court will likely dismiss it. Now, just because you got caught committing a violation and you can't claim that the officer lied, that he was wrong, that he made all of it up does not make it unjust. Simply because the automated system provides they type of proof that is irrefutable does not make it unfair.

    So how about you tell us why you think the ticket is unjust. And no, I am not asking about "fighting a machine" brcause as it turns out, the Ohio legislature felt there aren't any issues with that part. I am asking about what act you did which resulted in your receiving a citation... How was that unfair? And what makes you feel that you should not have been cited?

    Here is a rare view point, and if you feel these systems and the manner in which these citations are issued are unfair and unjust you had, have and will continue to have the option of driving in a cautious and prudent manner, paying attention to signs signals and markers and staying within the limits of the law.

  4. #4

    Default Re: How to Challenge Automatic Ticketing Systems

    Quote Quoting That Guy
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    If the ticket was unjustly issued, then you should be able to show why it is unjust, unfair or issued in error at which point the court will likely dismiss it. Now, just because you got caught committing a violation and you can't claim that the officer lied, that he was wrong, that he made all of it up does not make it unjust. Simply because the automated system provides they type of proof that is irrefutable does not make it unfair.

    So how about you tell us why you think the ticket is unjust. And no, I am not asking about "fighting a machine" brcause as it turns out, the Ohio legislature felt there aren't any issues with that part. I am asking about what act you did which resulted in your receiving a citation... How was that unfair? And what makes you feel that you should not have been cited?

    Here is a rare view point, and if you feel these systems and the manner in which these citations are issued are unfair and unjust you had, have and will continue to have the option of driving in a cautious and prudent manner, paying attention to signs signals and markers and staying within the limits of the law.
    The biggest issue is the placement. Many people are posting on Facebook regarding their infractions stating that they felt they were not speeding (the system is giving extremely expensive tickets for 3-4 mph over the limit infractions). The problem is, there is a 10 mph speed drop at the town line, which is where the system it. It's widely speculated that the system is clocking you outside the town limits and generating the ticket on this. To my understanding, this is not allowed.

    But in the end, I'm sure we'll all just have to learn to live with it as I don't think they system is going anywhere.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: How to Challenge Automatic Ticketing Systems

    Quote Quoting isitlegalmk
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    The biggest issue is the placement. Many people are posting on Facebook regarding their infractions stating that they felt they were not speeding (the system is giving extremely expensive tickets for 3-4 mph over the limit infractions). The problem is, there is a 10 mph speed drop at the town line, which is where the system it. It's widely speculated that the system is clocking you outside the town limits and generating the ticket on this. To my understanding, this is not allowed.

    But in the end, I'm sure we'll all just have to learn to live with it as I don't think they system is going anywhere.

    Ah, see.. Had you mentioned Facebook from the get go, I would have had a different answer! Sarcasm intended.

    So if there was no such thing as Facebook, how big a problem would this have been?

    But seriously, I am sorry but I am not feeling any of your excuses and reasons above and beyond that it would be a violation of your rightsif you think about it, placement is a non-issue as well.

    Presumably the speed limits in this city/municipality/county/entity are set by proper authority assigned by the powers that be to perform that duty. And it has done so pursuant to the requirement of the State of Ohio and any municipal or local ordinances as required. And so the 10mph drop would have been there with or without camera. And whether a citation is issued by a live officer using Radar or by an automated system designed, programmed and implemented to do the same as an officer would do and then add photographic evidence as allowed by law.

    In other words, this 10mph drop is pretty simple to handle... Make sure that by the time you pass the speed limit sign indicating the drop, make sure you are under that particular speed limit.

    Last but not least, the citations being issued for 3-4 mph over the limit is matter of policy of the agency issuing the citations. They can opt to not issue them for that low of a speed differential, but so far they've decided otherwise.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: How to Challenge Automatic Ticketing Systems

    isitlegalmk;655223]The biggest issue is the placement. Many people are posting on Facebook regarding their infractions stating that they felt they were not speeding
    what they felt is irrelevant. It is based on if they actually were or not.

    (the system is giving extremely expensive tickets for 3-4 mph over the limit infractions)
    the system doesn't determine the fine and fees. The law does and yes, a ticket for 3 or 4 mph over the limit is still a valid ticket.



    . The problem is, there is a 10 mph speed drop at the town line, which is where the system it. It's widely speculated that the system is clocking you outside the town limits and generating the ticket on this. To my understanding, this is not allowed.
    then prove it in court. You'll win if you can prove that not only it can clock people outside of the lower speed zone but you were outside of that zone when clocked. Most SMD's include a distance to the target.

  7. #7

    Default Re: How to Challenge Automatic Ticketing Systems

    To be honest, as right as these assessments may be, I think we're a little off point here.

    My original intended (although it may have not come across this way) question was that when you fight a ticket in court, you're allowed to verify if it was used correctly, the equipment is certified, has been maintained to ensure proper calibration and that kind of thing. If this is going to be a staple of our town, I'd like to know what we're allowed to request regarding this piece of machinery to ensure it's being maintained properly. If we are going to be held to such a ridged standard of enforcement, I don't feel it's unreasonable to hold those administrating it to that same standard.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: How to Challenge Automatic Ticketing Systems

    Quote Quoting isitlegalmk
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    To be honest, as right as these assessments may be, I think we're a little off point here.

    My original intended (although it may have not come across this way) question was that when you fight a ticket in court, you're allowed to verify if it was used correctly, the equipment is certified, has been maintained to ensure proper calibration and that kind of thing. If this is going to be a staple of our town, I'd like to know what we're allowed to request regarding this piece of machinery to ensure it's being maintained properly. If we are going to be held to such a ridged standard of enforcement, I don't feel it's unreasonable to hold those administrating it to that same standard.
    The requirements for the equipment used for autonomous SMD's is the same as one operated by a cop. No difference. I don't know why you feel it wouldn't be.

  9. #9

    Default Re: How to Challenge Automatic Ticketing Systems

    Quote Quoting jk
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    The requirements for the equipment used for autonomous SMD's is the same as one operated by a cop. No difference. I don't know why you feel it wouldn't be.
    I don't feel that. However, the difference is one is a small handheld device and the other is a giant piece of machinery that (for all I know) is being contracted out via another service and not directly overseen by our local police department. Then again, maybe it's not. I just don't want to bumble into anything if I decided to challenge it. It's better if I were to know the facts.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: How to Challenge Automatic Ticketing Systems

    inside that giant piece of machinery is basically the same device that is handheld by the cop. There is actually very little difference in the process of a cop giving you a ticket in person and a ticket issued as the result of the machine. When the handheld unit signals an alert of a speeder, rather than a human reacting to that and stopping the speeder, that same electronic signal is used to trigger a camera that then takes a picture of the speeder.

    The results are then reviewed by a person and a ticket issued to whomever is determined to be deserving of one.

    (for all I know) is being contracted out via another service and not directly overseen by our local police department.
    what does that matter? The law regarding such devices must be followed regardless of who operates the unit.

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