Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 11
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    11

    Unhappy How to Fight Speeding in a School Zone, 17 MPH Over the Limit, VC 22350

    My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: California

    I just got a citation for violating 22350VC. The officer claimed that I was speeding at 43 mph on a road with 25 mph school zone posted limit(normally 40mph). I was coming from Shady Lane, Turlock, California, United States) when I passed the school and made a right turn onto Monte Vista Avenue when a police motorcycle pulled me over(1636 West Monte Vista Avenue, Turlock, California, United States). He told me he had used a radar to measure my speed, which he alleged was 43mph. He asked me "Is there a reason for going 43 mph in a 25 mph school zone?" Although I wasn't looking at my speedometer, I estimated that my speed was somewhere between 35-38mph and not the alleged claim. But I didn't argue with the cop, thinking that it was pointless as he was claiming he had used a radar so I said "I did not even realize". Then he requested for my license and registration. After that, he just got on his motorcycle and rode away. I'm not sure if this matters but, he pulled me over out of the school zone on Monte Vista Avenue.

    Conditions at the time of my stop: it was clear(morning @ 7:00am, by the time he finished writing the citation, it was 7:09am), visibility was clear, traffic was light (in fact, I think I was the only one on my lane at the time), and there were no pedestrians on either side of road that I saw during my stop. I checked the school site which states that the school starts at 7:50am. The school signs do not have any flashing lights.

    If you were the alleged offender, how would you fight this ticket, from beginning to the end? I appreciate your input from gathering evidence (what pieces of evidence are relevant?) to requesting discovery, filing pre-trial motions and preparing defense (what part of the cited law should be attacked?).

    Thanks in advance for any advice...

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    LA LA Land
    Posts
    9,170

    Default Re: How to Fight Speeding in a School Zone, VC 22350(43 MPH in 25 MPH Zone)

    Quote Quoting cschew
    View Post
    I was coming from Shady Lane, Turlock, California, United States) when I passed the school and made a right turn onto Monte Vista Avenue when a police motorcycle pulled me over(1636 West Monte Vista Avenue, Turlock, California, United States).
    Shady lane and Monte Vista Avenue run parallel to each other in an East-West direction with about a half a mile or more distance between them. So you'll have to provide a more accurate description of the name of the school where said school zone is located. There are several schools in the area.



    Unless you are referring to Turlock Junior High School and if that is the case, I would be curious as to what time of day is indicated on the citation? Should be up top/first set of boxes?

    I simply ask because I think you misread the school schedule or as it is more accurately referred to on the school website the BELL SCHEDULE. Although "Period 1" starts at 7:50, the hope is by that time all students are in class already, not on their way TO class. As such, it appears that the school opens at 7:01am for any students who want to be there that early. Assuming it is signed properly and the signs indicate a "When children Are Present", as defined in the vehicle code, that would include the time period "while children are going to or leaving the school either during school hours or during the noon recess period". Another way to look at it would be to include "period 0" as part of the school schedule and as such, from 7:01 on is considered "school hours" as described under VC 40802(b)(2).

    You can try and cut corners and claim you passed at 7:00am whereas the school isn't open until 7:01am. I'm not sure you're going to find a judge that will buy that.

    This alone would result in a situation where the 25mph speed limit is a P.F. limit set by statute, no speed survey is required, only the officer's testimony that your speed exceeded the posted limit, all of which would make your case an extremely difficult one to beat.

    Quote Quoting cschew
    View Post
    If you were the alleged offender, how would you fight this ticket, from beginning to the end?
    If that is indeed the school, and assuming the zone is signed properly, I would proceed by pleading guilty, taking traffic school and hoping I don't have to repeat for the next 18 months.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    11

    Default Re: How to Fight Speeding in a School Zone, VC 22350(43 MPH in 25 MPH Zone)

    I heading westbound from Shady Lane. Made a left(Southbound) onto North Walnut Road. Made a right onto Monte Vista Avenue where I was pulled over. The motorcycle cop wrote down 3900 North Walnut Road (Turlock Junior High School) and pulled me over at 1636 West Monte Vista Avenue, Turlock, California, United States.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The "school zone end" sign is right before the cross street Winter Haven Drive(approximately 3705 North Walnut Road, Turlock, California, United States). The zone is properly signed and says "When Children Are Present".

    What does P.F. limit stand for?

    So is it even worth to try and write a TBD saying that I was at tagged at 7:00am not 7:01am? The citation says 7:09am, but that is after I was already on Monte Vista Avenue and when he pulled me over. Are there any cons from writing a TBD? Am I still eligible for traffic school after a TBD?

    Thank you for the quick response.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    LA LA Land
    Posts
    9,170

    Default Re: How to Fight Speeding in a School Zone, VC 22350(43 MPH in 25 MPH Zone)

    Let me then respond to the other comments...

    Quote Quoting cschew
    View Post
    Although I wasn't looking at my speedometer, I estimated that my speed was somewhere between 35-38mph and not the alleged claim.
    Which would obviously still be in excess of 25mph. That is a maximum speed in that zone, and whether at 35, 38 or 43... All are in excess and all will result in a finding of guilt (0 to 15mph in excess of limit) and a fine of approximately $238 or so (as per the July/2012 bail schedule = up $4 from the January/2012 bail schedule).

    Quote Quoting cschew
    View Post
    I'm not sure if this matters but, he pulled me over out of the school zone on Monte Vista Avenue.
    There is no requirement for him to stop you in the same zone where the violation occurred.

    Quote Quoting cschew
    View Post
    Conditions at the time of my stop: it was clear(morning @ 7:00am, by the time he finished writing the citation, it was 7:09am), visibility was clear, traffic was light (in fact, I think I was the only one on my lane at the time), and there were no pedestrians on either side of road that I saw during my stop.
    Conditions aren't relevant under the circumstances. And although VC 22350 mentions safe/prudent speed relative to conditions at the time, the one condition that matters is that it was a school zone and the only safe speed that is acceptable is the 25mph speed.

    And last, but not least...

    Quote Quoting cschew
    View Post
    The school signs do not have any flashing lights.
    Flashing lights for school zones and though an option for the regulatory authority responsible for road design/regulation and the setting of traffic control devices, it is not a requirement to validate the school zone. the yellow school zone plaque and the additional "When Children Are Present" notation under the speed limit are sufficient.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Quoting cschew
    View Post
    The "school zone end" sign is right before the cross street Winter Haven Drive(approximately 3705 North Walnut Road, Turlock, California, United States). The zone is properly signed and says "When Children Are Present".
    A school zone sign for you, travelling southbound on Walnut and around the cross street with North Haven, would be too late as notice for the school zone. The sign you would see as you turned from Shady Lane onto North Walnut and is shown in the link I posted as part of my last post. You can see it by clicking HERE.

    It makes very little difference actually to both northbound and southbound traffic. A school zone can be implemented by posting of the appropriate signage anywhere from 500 to 1000 feet away from (before and after) the location where a school is located. So in this case, they can start the school zone starts at any point between Monte Vista Ave Bluethroat Dr (that must be painful) to the south and it would run continuously all the way up and past W. Christoffersen Pkwy but as soon as you get ready to end it for the one school, you are now in another school zone that is set due to the location of the Walnut Elementary Education Center, so you'd run through that zone which can conceivably go for 500 to 1000 feet north of the border of Walnut Elementary Education Center, at W Springer Dr.

    For the southbound direction, you can see HERE that it starts just north of W Springer Dr, it runs further south with another notice/sign at Shady lane and all the way past the Jr. High school until you reach Monte Vista Ave.


    Quote Quoting cschew
    View Post
    What does P.F. limit stand for?
    P.F. is an abbreviation of the Latin term -Prima Facie-: (pry-mah fay-shah) adj. Latin for "at first look," or "on its face,". Basically referring to a speed limit being what you see on the sign. Although there are several other analogies that can be provided. In this case, it actually refers to the requirement that for a specific speed limit to be valid, notice of the same must be given by posting of a sign that a driver can see and (hopefully) abide by.

    The full legal definition of (example) a Prima Facie Case: referring to a lawsuit or criminal prosecution in which the evidence before trial is sufficient to prove the case unless there is substantial contradictory evidence presented at trial. A prima facie case presented to a Grand Jury by the prosecution will result in an indictment. Example: in a charge of bad check writing, evidence of a half dozen checks written on a non-existent bank account makes it a prima facie case. However, proof that the bank had misprinted the account number on the checks might disprove the prosecution's apparent "open and shut" case.

    And to bring it even closer to home, the presence of a school zone sign gives rise to a legal presumption that a school zone is in effect and enforceable at specific times during the day. The officer's testimony the you drove through that zone during such a time when the school zone was enforceable (assuming he was correct in his allegation) means he has a prima facie case against you. You can of course rebut either of those presumptions by providing competent evidence that (a) you, as a driver, were not given notice as indicated by a sign (and you would need a letter from the city planning dept that a sign is missing along your route) or (b) the time you passed was not considered part of the time that a school zone is in effect. For evidence to be competent in this case it would have to be a showing that at the time you passed, it was inconceivable that a student could be on his/her way to school -as an example at 6:30am- simply because school is closed at that time. However, the differential of one or two minutes, in my opinion, makes it a case of your word against that of the officer and 9 out of 10 times, it is not likely to be sufficient to overcome his version of events.

    Quote Quoting cschew
    View Post
    So is it even worth to try and write a TBD saying that I was at tagged at 7:00am not 7:01am? The citation says 7:09am, but that is after I was already on Monte Vista Avenue and when he pulled me over. Are there any cons from writing a TBD? Am I still eligible for traffic school after a TBD?
    You are free to try and submit a TBD with whatever explanation you feel is pertinent. I think if the citation shows the time @ 7:09, and though I don't write citations myself but can see how 8 minutes would be sufficient for some officers to write a few, not just one. And as such it would be difficult to try and impress that the alleged violation occurred prior to 7:01. Especially with such a short conversation with the officer. But that's just my view.

    The upside to submitting a TBD is that the officer may fail to submit his own declaration and in such a case, your case will get dismissed and your bail refunded. There are two downsides to that strategy though. If the officer were to submit a declaration and assuming he were to cross hit "T's" and dot his "i's", then you will likely lose and at that point, some courts may not allow the traffic school option after attempting a TBD or a trial. The fact is judges are prohibited from making such a decision based simply on your opting to fight your case, but since they are not obligated to disclose a reason for their refusal, some do simply outright refuse the request without providing any reason.

    The other downside is that while you may be offered a small reduction if you were to plead guilty at the arraignment (no guarantee you will be offered any, but it does happen more often than not), you will have to post bail in the full amount of the fine before you would be allowed the TBD option or the court trial option. And once the court has your money, the likelihood that a judge will reduce your fine if you lose... it happens but is fairly rare.

    Good luck!

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    11

    Default Re: How to Fight Speeding in a School Zone, VC 22350(43 MPH in 25 MPH Zone)

    Quote Quoting That Guy
    View Post

    A school zone sign for you, travelling southbound on Walnut and around the cross street with North Haven, would be too late as notice for the school zone. The sign you would see as you turned from Shady Lane onto North Walnut and is shown in the link I posted as part of my last post. You can see it by clicking HERE.

    The way that sign is positioned, I cannot actually see that sign as I make a left turn from shady lane onto north walnut. But I guess it doesn't really matter because there is a new 2nd sign(which is somewhat blocked by trees), and a 3rd new sign in front of the school.


    Quote Quoting That Guy
    View Post

    You are free to try and submit a TBD with whatever explanation you feel is pertinent. I think if the citation shows the time @ 7:09, and though I don't write citations myself but can see how 8 minutes would be sufficient for some officers to write a few, not just one. And as such it would be difficult to try and impress that the alleged violation occurred prior to 7:01. Especially with such a short conversation with the officer. But that's just my view.
    I think he probably tagged me at 7:00am. I had to travel all the way to Monte Vista Avenue which I had to stop for 30-60 seconds because it was a red light and had to wait to make a right turn onto Monte Vista Avenue until there were no more oncoming traffic. Then I traveled around 100 feet before he pulled me over. He then asked me the question about my speed. It took me awhile to find my registration, and it took him a couple minutes to write the ticket.

    Quote Quoting That Guy
    View Post

    The upside to submitting a TBD is that the officer may fail to submit his own declaration and in such a case, your case will get dismissed and your bail refunded. There are two downsides to that strategy though. If the officer were to submit a declaration and assuming he were to cross hit "T's" and dot his "i's", then you will likely lose and at that point, some courts may not allow the traffic school option after attempting a TBD or a trial. The fact is judges are prohibited from making such a decision based simply on your opting to fight your case, but since they are not obligated to disclose a reason for their refusal, some do simply outright refuse the request without providing any reason.

    The other downside is that while you may be offered a small reduction if you were to plead guilty at the arraignment (no guarantee you will be offered any, but it does happen more often than not), you will have to post bail in the full amount of the fine before you would be allowed the TBD option or the court trial option. And once the court has your money, the likelihood that a judge will reduce your fine if you lose... it happens but is fairly rare.
    Is it possible to request traffic school at the end of my TBD? I think the only argument I have is that I was tagged around 7:00am(which I know is not very strong), but hopefully the police officer won't submit his TBD??? But if it risks my eligibility for traffic school, it's not worth to submit a TBD right? Arghh!! I guess I'm just frustrated because there were no children or cross guards even present, otherwise I would have slow downed!

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    LA LA Land
    Posts
    9,170

    Default Re: How to Fight Speeding in a School Zone, VC 22350(43 MPH in 25 MPH Zone)

    Quote Quoting cschew
    View Post
    The way that sign is positioned, I cannot actually see that sign as I make a left turn from shady lane onto north walnut. But I guess it doesn't really matter because there is a new 2nd sign(which is somewhat blocked by trees), and a 3rd new sign in front of the school.
    Precisely, it depends on where the officer was, where you were when he measured your speed.

    Quote Quoting cschew
    View Post
    I think he probably tagged me at 7:00am. I had to travel all the way to Monte Vista Avenue which I had to stop for 30-60 seconds because it was a red light and had to wait to make a right turn onto Monte Vista Avenue until there were no more oncoming traffic. Then I traveled around 100 feet before he pulled me over. He then asked me the question about my speed. It took me awhile to find my registration, and it took him a couple minutes to write the ticket.
    Sounds reasonable, I guess. Couldn't tell you what he will testify to but if it were me, I'd be inclined to assume he knows that school schedule.

    Quote Quoting cschew
    View Post
    Is it possible to request traffic school at the end of my TBD?
    It is possible to request it, but there is no guarantee your request will be granted. Courts differ, even individual judges may allow it one day but not the next. The only assurance you have is that you can take that option at any time until you elect a TBD or a trial. At that point, it becomes up to the discretion of the court.

    Quote Quoting cschew
    View Post
    I guess I'm just frustrated
    Don't decide while you're frustrated. You'll have 21 days before the citation gets filed in court and possibly a few week from then before your scheduled appearance date. Plenty of time to stalk the officer at 6:55 every morning to see what time he starts... Oops, I meant, plenty of time to get un-frustrated and make a well thought, educated decision. (Of course even if you can show that he started at 6:50 for that matter, on a subsequent day, that does not mean he tagged you early on your day, so I really was just kidding).

    You might want to contact the court clerk to ask them about your court's policy with regards to traffic school, and/or possibly attend an trafic court arraignment session and a traffic court trial session or two, to get a feel for the bench officer's attitude and how lenient he/she is with such requests.

    Good luck!

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    11

    Default Re: How to Fight Speeding in a School Zone, VC 22350(43 MPH in 25 MPH Zone)

    My friends are saying that I should plea "not guilty" because no children were present at the time. They are saying I should argue that the school zone sign indicates it is enforced when 1) When children are present AND 2) During school hours. Even if the I was within the 7:01am-7:49am time, no children were present.

    Because the law states "For purposes of this section "school zone" means that area approaching or passing a school building or the grounds thereof that is contiguous to a highway and on which is posted a standard "SCHOOL" warning sign, while children are going to or leaving the school either during school hours or during the noon recess period." but I did not see any children or crossguards present and therefore the school zone cannot be enforced?

    It seems like this law is open to a lot of interpretation.

    What do you think? Is this a valid argument? I'm just trying to gather as many opinions as possible before I decide what I should do.

    Another person is telling me that I should plea No Contest, but explain the circumstances of how I did not see any children present, therefore the school speed zone should not be enforced. He also suggest that I should explain that I knew it was a school zone, and that I would have slowed down if children were present, otherwise how am I supposed to know the school bell schedule starts at 7:01am when I did not see any children or school cross guards present, and there are no light indicators to show that school hours are in session. And to also explain the time it took for the officer to pull me over and write the citation. They would probably still be able to give me a fine for going 43mph in a 40mph zone though.

    Please let me know what you think and if you already see any flaws or errors in those arguments.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Does anyone have an opinion on the argument that children were NOT present at the time of the citation? The law clearly states while children ARE going to or leaving school. It doesn't say will be, or should be. Therefore since there were no children present at the time, then the school zone cannot be enforced correct?

    The DMV handbook also states:

    When driving within 500 to 1,000 feet of a school while children are outside or crossing the street, the speed limit is 25 mph unless otherwise posted. Also, if the school grounds have no fence and children are outside, never drive faster than 25 mph. Some school zones may have speed limits as low as 15 mph. Always drive more carefully near schools, playgrounds, parks, and residential areas because children may suddenly dart into the street. Also, many children have not yet developed the ability to judge speeds and distances well enough to cross streets safely when cars are moving fast.


    http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/speed_limits.htm

    http://www.expertlaw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6110 is basically the same example of my case no?

    How do I go about requesting the officer's notes?

    Are there any other suggestions???

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    LA LA Land
    Posts
    9,170

    Default Re: How to Fight Speeding in a School Zone, VC 22350(43 MPH in 25 MPH Zone)

    Quote Quoting cschew
    View Post
    My friends are saying that I should plea "not guilty" because no children were present at the time.
    And you certainly are free to listen to whichever advice makes more sense to you.

    Quote Quoting cschew
    View Post
    They are saying I should argue that the school zone sign indicates it is enforced when 1) When children are present AND 2) During school hours.
    You're actually repeating the same element twice by stating it that way. For all practical purposes and as far as a school zone being in effect, "children can only be present"... "during school hours". (Yes, I realize there are after school activities and detention and sports and ... etc. But again, those are described as "AFTER school" activities and therefore, by definition, a school zone is NOT in effect then even though some children are present).

    Another example is on weekends... You see children across the street from a school, does that mean the school zone limit is in effect? No, simply because school is CLOSED.

    The full definition comes from VC 40802 and it states:

    For purposes of this section "school zone" means that area approaching or passing a school building or the grounds thereof that is contiguous to a highway and on which is posted a standard "SCHOOL" warning sign, while children are going to or leaving the school either during school hours or during the noon recess period. "School zone" also includes the area approaching or passing any school grounds that are not separated from the highway by a fence, gate, or other physical barrier while the grounds are in use by children if that highway is posted with a standard "SCHOOL" warning sign.


    You can also find a similar definition under VC 22352(a)(2)(B) which states:

    When approaching or passing a school building or the grounds thereof, contiguous to a highway and posted with a standard "SCHOOL" warning sign, while children are going to or leaving the school either during school hours or during the noon recess period. The prima facie limit shall also apply when approaching or passing any school grounds which are not separated from the highway by a fence, gate, or other physical barrier while the grounds are in use by children and the highway is posted with a standard "SCHOOL" warning sign. For purposes of this subparagraph, standard "SCHOOL" warning signs may be placed at any distance up to 500 feet away from school grounds.


    Show me where you find that the definition of "when children are present"?

    Better yet, show where it indicates that it means you, the defendant, have to physically see them and admit to seeing them in court!

    And what if at 7:01 that morning, a group of kids are on their way to school, walking westbound on W. Christoffersen Pkwy from Crowell Rd towards N Walnut, but since (hypothetically) and as you drove southbound on N Walnut Ave at 43mph you had a green light as you approached W. Christoffersen Pkwy, so you simply went through the intersection but did not look to your left and hence, you did not actually see them... Is the school zone speed limit in effect or are you subject to the 40mph non school zone limit?

    One more hypothetical:

    Same exact scenario... Only difference is, the officer can see the kids approaching, he can see the time is 7:01 and ticking, he can also see you and has a good enough visual where he can visually estimate your speed as well as use Radar to confirm his estimate. Clocks you at 43. Chases you, light you up, asks you for docs, writes you up and you go to court "your honor I did not see any children"... He says "you honor defendant was going too fast to be able to see any children". Who's right and who's wrong?

    Let me even quote what the average judge will say ”the safety of children is paramount and in similar situations such as what we have here, it is best to err on the side of caution”.

    Fact is, the term "when children are present" is not part of the code, and as such it is not an element of the offense. the elements of the offense are defined within the code section itself and from that description, you can clearly see that the qualifier is NOT you seeing them, but as long as that sign says "SCHOOL", and as long as the clock shows it is "school hours while children are going to or leaving school or can potentially or conceivably be going to school" during two time period: (1) either during school hours or (2) during the noon recess period. So the combination of coming and going to school AND during school hours MEANS from the time school opens until the time the first bell rings where kids are in class. And in the afternoon from the time that the bell rings till the time that school officially closes (with no exception made for after school activities). That leaves the noon recess or lunch recess and depending on when the bell rings to start it and the other bell rings to end it, the school zone speed limit is in effect then as well, even if ALL the children were made to stay at school, the code defines that time period as one where the school zone is on and is enforceable and so it is considered on and enforceable.

    Here is an non related matter that involved "when children are present" that may offer more validation to my interpretation.

    The same provisions that apply for a school zone, apply for a playground. So as you are passing a playground, the speed limit reduction to 25mph is authorized pursuant to VC 22357.1 which states:

    22357.1.
    Notwithstanding Section 22357, a local authority may, by ordinance or resolution, set a prima facie speed limit of 25 miles per hour on any street, other than a state highway, adjacent to any children's playground in a public park but only during particular hours or days when children are expected to use the facilities. The 25 miles per hour speed limit shall be effective when signs giving notice of the speed limit are posted.
    Added Ch. 508, Stats. 1989. Effective January 1, 1990.


    The required sign would look exactly like you would see for a school zone except, naturally, instead of saying "SCHOOL", it would say "PLAYGROUND", yet the 25mph would look the same and the "WHEN CHILDREN ARE PRESENT" would look the same.

    So how do you interpret "When Children Are Present" in this case?

    Do you have to see them? No!

    Do they have to make their presence known? No!

    Is the presence of or lack thereof flashing lights/crossing guards/baby sitters/Ronald Mcdonald/Easter Bunny change whether the playground speed zone limit is on? No!

    So how do you determine when that reduced limit is in effect?

    ".... during particular hours or days when children are expected to use the facilities..." meaning, as long as the playground is open, then they can be expected to use the facilities, the reduced limit is on!

    That is what this "When Children Are Present" means. See the correlation?

    When playground is open <---> Children are expected to be there <-----------------------------> Reduced speed limit is in effect!
    When school is open <-------> Children are expected to be going/coming/lunch from there <-----> Reduced speed limit is in effect!

    If you still feel you and your friends are correct in your interpretation, by all means, test it with your court and see how it works out!

    Quote Quoting cschew
    View Post
    Even if the I was within the 7:01am-7:49am time, no children were present.
    Says who? the defendant who's looking to save $367. No disrespect intended but if your definition is valid and if you were to ask the officer "where there any children present" at the time officer? What do you think he'll say? remember, he cited you for violating the school zone speed limit. And he did so simply because as he understands it, and as he described it to you and will describe it to the court if called upon to do so, that it was in effect at the time.

    Now play that same scenario but now you're asking him about the time...

    Don't post your answers. I don't need to know what he'll say and who the court will believe and who's version it will dismiss or not consider.

    Quote Quoting cschew
    View Post
    Because the law states "For purposes of this section "school zone" means that area approaching or passing a school building or the grounds thereof that is contiguous to a highway and on which is posted a standard "SCHOOL" warning sign, while children are going to or leaving the school either during school hours or during the noon recess period." but I did not see any children or crossguards present and therefore the school zone cannot be enforced?
    OK, then test the limits of the law by attempting to apply your strict definition that you must see them and be forced to slow down otherwise, no restrictions.

    Quote Quoting cschew
    View Post
    It seems like this law is open to a lot of interpretation.
    Actually, it is not... And the terminology you will hear often is: "the safety of children is paramount... etc, etc.... etc!"

    When was the last time you heard of an accident, child versus auto, where everybody pointed the finger at the child and said "dumb little kid jumped in the middle of the road"... Or do you think the majority will say: "driver was speeding, he tried to stop" or "he could have stopped but he wasn't paying attention” or “simply going too fast"...

    Quote Quoting cschew
    View Post
    What do you think? Is this a valid argument?
    I can tell you based on the posts, and rarely the follow ups I read on this forum and elsewhere, you are free to try your friend's strategy, but I highly doubt you will win.

    Quote Quoting cschew
    View Post
    Another person is telling me that I should plea No Contest, but explain the circumstances of how I did not see any children present, therefore the school speed zone should not be enforced. He also suggest that I should explain that I knew it was a school zone, and that I would have slowed down if children were present, otherwise how am I supposed to know the school bell schedule starts at 7:01am when I did not see any children or school cross guards present, and there are no light indicators to show that school hours are in session. And to also explain the time it took for the officer to pull me over and write the citation. They would probably still be able to give me a fine for going 43mph in a 40mph zone though.
    Let me correct my math AGAIN before I make my next point. You were cited for 43 in 25 which is 18mph in excess of the limit and the fine amount per the schedule is going to be approximately $367 instead of the $238 I quoted earlier. Now...

    So another person is suggesting that you:

    1. plead no contest which under the circumstances and since you were not involved in an accident and are not subject to a possible civil suit, it is essentially "admitting guilt"...
    2. admit you knew it was a school zone and if you drive there regularly, any responsible driver would find it to be his duty to establish a start/end time for the school zone,
    3. offer that there were no crossing guards no flashing lights neither of which are a requirement for the school zone to be in effect,


    That leaves two points. But, since you obviously are doing this at the arraignment, and since the officer is not their to testify or to respond to your claims that there were no children present, if that were a determining factor, AND that he cited you too early, those two issues are moot at that point, so you better not even mention them.

    So in essence, you plead no contest accept responsibility for the offense, admit you knew it was a school zone, and offer two irrelevant matters as a means to mitigate your penalty. And that is supposed to convince the judge to wipe off 15mph off of your speed (again, while the officer is not there to confirm/refute anything) and then you have potential to only to end up paying a fine for 43 in a 40 which equates to $238 as opposed to the $367 you would otherwise pay???

    I'm not feeling it, simply because its too much of an effort for very little gain. In fact you might be offered that sort of reduction for keeping quiet. That will depend on your court and the presiding judge.




    Quote Quoting cschew
    View Post
    The DMV handbook also states:

    When driving within 500 to 1,000 feet of a school while children are outside or crossing the street, the speed limit is 25 mph unless otherwise posted. Also, if the school grounds have no fence and children are outside, never drive faster than 25 mph. Some school zones may have speed limits as low as 15 mph. Always drive more carefully near schools, playgrounds, parks, and residential areas because children may suddenly dart into the street. Also, many children have not yet developed the ability to judge speeds and distances well enough to cross streets safely when cars are moving fast.


    http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/speed_limits.htm
    The DMV book also say you can hold in your hand and use a wireless device that is designed and configured as a "hands-free" wireless device... Go figure that logic!

    But lets assume that the DMV book happens to be the authority on interpreting the law, where do you see anywhere in that paragraph that you must see the children otherwise the school zone cannot be enforced? Better yet, you see a kid in their front yard, that's "outside" but is the school zone in-force or not? Why would the law allow such subjectivity if we can somehow set it to a specific time peruiod from when school opens to the time it closes?

    At any rate, you can make whatever argument you want. I am not affected in any way, shape or form if you win/lose.

    Quote Quoting cschew
    View Post
    http://www.expertlaw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6110 is basically the same example of my case no?
    That's a Washington State thread. What would lead you to believe that Washington state laws would apply in California?

    Quote Quoting cschew
    View Post
    How do I go about requesting the officer's notes?
    You can Google "California Informal Discovery" and you'll find plenty of info.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    LA LA Land
    Posts
    9,170

    Default Re: How to Fight Speeding in a School Zone, VC 22350(43 MPH in 25 MPH Zone)

    Thread reactivated...

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    11

    Default Re: How to Fight Speeding in a School Zone, VC 22350(43 MPH in 25 MPH Zone)

    The only new information I have is the sign I found at the school that clearly states the school's hours begins at 7:50am-2:25pm. This is in conflict with the bell schedule on their school website that says the first bell rings at 7:00am. I cannot figure out how to upload the sign with the school hours onto this forum.

    1. Sponsored Links
       

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Speeding Tickets: Speeding in School Zone - Officer Could Not See Flashing School Zone Lights
    By rottbach in forum Moving Violations, Parking and Traffic Tickets
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 02-18-2012, 09:17 AM
  2. Speeding Tickets: How to Fight Speeding in a School Zone, VC 22350
    By M.Q. in forum Moving Violations, Parking and Traffic Tickets
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: 01-31-2012, 10:04 PM
  3. Speeding Tickets: How to Fight a Speeding Charge, 50 MPH in a 35 MPH Zone (VC 22350)
    By idog in forum Moving Violations, Parking and Traffic Tickets
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 10-14-2011, 07:23 AM
  4. Speeding Tickets: School Zone Speeding Ticket, but School Zone Lights Weren't Flashing
    By Lostproph37 in forum Moving Violations, Parking and Traffic Tickets
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 10-03-2011, 05:02 PM
  5. Speeding Tickets: How to Fight a Speeding in a Construction Zone Ticket, VC 22350
    By Nick Ellis in forum Moving Violations, Parking and Traffic Tickets
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 04-06-2011, 08:06 PM
 
 
Sponsored Links

Legal Help, Information and Resources