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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
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    LA LA Land
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    9,170

    Default Re: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed

    Quote Quoting bruinPE
    View Post
    Not really on topic, but just wanted to chime in regarding the Min Green.

    The min green exists for when there's very few vehicles. Do you really want to wait for more than 4 sec (green) + 3 sec (yellow) for a single left-turning car?
    Aaahhhh, yes... Makes total sense!

    Thanks bruin... but now that you're here, maybe you can briefly touch on whether it is possible to have a circular red on the same signal head that has a green arrow, and maybe elaborate briefly on why that type of set up would be used!

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    California
    Posts
    98

    Default Re: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed

    I'm going to assume that this is for a fully protected left-turn phase with a three bulb vehicle head (MUTCD CA 2010 Section 4D.06 Standard B.2). It is possible for a vehicle head to have a circular red, yellow arrow, and green arrow as long as the circular red is not visible to the through lanes or is properly signed. However, it's not a typical setup in most cities that I have seen.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    LA LA Land
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    9,170

    Default Re: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed

    Quote Quoting bruinPE
    View Post
    I'm going to assume that this is for a fully protected left-turn phase with a three bulb vehicle head (MUTCD CA 2010 Section 4D.06 Standard B.2). It is possible for a vehicle head to have a circular red, yellow arrow, and green arrow as long as the circular red is not visible to the through lanes or is properly signed. However, it's not a typical setup in most cities that I have seen.
    So then it would follow that VC 21453(c) really wouldn't be an applicable citation!

    21453(c) A driver facing a steady red arrow signal shall not enter the intersection to make the movement indicated by the arrow and, unless entering the intersection to make a movement permitted by another signal, shall stop at a clearly marked limit line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, or if none, then before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an indication permitting movement is shown.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    California
    Posts
    98

    Default Re: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed

    Wouldn't it just be 21453 (a) then?

    21453. (a) A driver facing a steady circular red signal alone shall stop at a marked limit line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an indication to proceed is shown, except as provided in subdivision (b).

    (b) Except when a sign is in place prohibiting a turn, a driver, after stopping as required by subdivision (a), facing a steady circular red signal, may turn right, or turn left from a one-way street onto a one-way street. A driver making that turn shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within an adjacent crosswalk and to any vehicle that has approached or is approaching so closely as to constitute an immediate hazard to the driver, and shall continue to yield the right-of-way to that vehicle until the driver can proceed with reasonable safety.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Snohomish, WA
    Posts
    1,588

    Default Re: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed

    So is there a video of the incident? Many of the camera setups in California record the previous 10-15 seconds prior to snapping the picture and 10-15 seconds after the picture is snapped. If it exists, it will be something you can use to prove your case.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed

    Thanks Speedy Gonzalez. This was not a camera ticket. I was pulled over by a cop.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    LA LA Land
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    9,170

    Default Re: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed

    Quote Quoting bruinPE
    View Post
    Wouldn't it just be 21453 (a) then?
    Exactly... If this does indeed prove to be the case (that this traffic light utilizes a circular red instead of a red arrow) then the officer SHOULD have cited bpat for 21453(a) -instead of- 21453(c).

    A simple oversight by the officer, but if it is to be corrected, it must be corrected prior to the arraignment with the officer completing, filing (in court) and mailing a copy of a Notice of Correction - Form TR-100 to the defendant along with proof of service form.

    bpat, if it is not corrected (meaning if you do not receive a Notice of Correction from the officer, then you can try the following in this order:
    A) Appear at the arraignment, present a copy of the engineering report showing that this particular signal head, utilizes a circular red instead on a red arrow, argue that subsection (c) is not applicable & accordingly the citation is defective on its face, and the case should be dismissed.
    .
    Now, it is likely that the judge is not going to accept that argument without the officer being present, at which point you would have to opt for choice (B) which is to enter a plea of "not guilty" and request. a trial or simply put in a request for a TBD (and yes, there is a great likelihood that you will having to post bail equal to the fine amount at this point (which, assuming the citation is dismissed, it will be refunded to you 6-8 weeks after the verdict)).

    In your TBD, or at your trial, your argument would simply be "I was cited for violating the direction of a red arrow, where in actuality, I was facing a circular red, & here is the engineering report to confirm that fact. Since the element of the charge with which I was cited (i.e. "A driver facing a steady red arrow signal shall not enter the intersection to make the movement indicated by the arrow") cannot be proven by the prosecution, the citation should be dismissed".

    Again, all of this is dependent upon the likelihood that the engineering report will specifically reference the type of red indicator used there. If it doesn't, (and since I highly doubt that Google Street view images would ft the bill) then you're only hope would be to take a drive out there to take pictures (and you should take them from angles that also show the street name signs as a means to lay the proper foundation for them).

  8. #28

    Default Re: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed

    Hi That Guy,
    Thanks for providing your feedback on my case. The current status is as follows:

    1) I have already paid the bail amount and had requested "Trial by Declaration".
    2) I have received the paperwork (Form TR-205) which i have to complete and submit before 10/25/2011.
    3) I have a few back and forth with the county's Department of Public Works before I finally obtained the required Traffic signal report (including the type of traffic light) and the photographs taken by the department for the intersection that supports their description of signal type.

    I have uploaded the pictures. Sorry, I have smudged the image to hide the personal information. You can have a look at the following

    1) The Courtesy Notice for the traffic violation: http://imageshack.us/f/412/noticefinal.jpg/
    2) The cover letter from the Department of Public Works: http://imageshack.us/f/641/coverletterfinal.jpg/
    3) Additional Photos provided by the department (Sorry, the photos are scanned in gray scale so its difficult to figure out the signal color. The original photos are color. You can skip the photos if required. It is similar to what we saw on Google street view.) :
    http://imageshack.us/f/403/photo1final.jpg/<br>
    http://imageshack.us/f/829/photo2final.jpg/<br>
    http://imageshack.us/f/26/photo3final.jpg/<br>
    http://imageshack.us/f/829/photo4final.jpg/
    <br>

    Given the above situation, I have the following questions

    1) Since I am cited for VC21453(C) Red Arrow violation and since the report shows that there is no Red arrow at the intersection, I am going to argue the case as you mentioned in your previous message. Do you think I would need anything else as an evidence other than what I have currently?

    2) I am also cited for VC16028(A) Fail to provide Evidence of Financial Responsibility (Proof of Insurance violation). I was driving my friend's car and his glove box would not open at that time for me to show the officer the proof of insurance. I have submitted the proof with the bail amount I sent. In the Statement of Fact should I also be contesting this violation? Should I include the details of this violation and also attach the insurance proof? Should I include description for both violations in the same Statement of facts or should I write 2 separate ones?

    3) I had seen a template letter from someone who had a similar case and for whom you reviewed the letter. I am planning to use the same template as this is my first correspondence with a court authority. I will prepare the draft for my case. Will you be able to please review it to see if the language and the format are correct?

    Thanks.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    LA LA Land
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    9,170

    Default Re: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed

    Quote Quoting bpat
    View Post
    Hi That Guy,
    Thanks for providing your feedback on my case.
    Not a problem, Pops...

    Quote Quoting bpat
    View Post
    2) The cover letter from the Department of Public Works: http://imageshack.us/f/641/coverletterfinal.jpg/
    That, right there along with the attached photos, should prove sufficient for an argument that 21453(c) is inapplicable in this case. And I see no reason why a dismissal would not be granted.

    Quote Quoting bpat
    View Post
    Sorry, the photos are scanned in gray scale so its difficult to figure out the signal color. The original photos are color.
    You'll have to submit the color photos along with your declaration. Now, although the evidence you submit will be returned to you after the case is decided, it would be in your best interest to get and keep copies (in color) of the color photos for your own record. This will not be the first time that either the USPS or the court happened to lose paperwork so better safe than sorry. Also, I assume you're mailing it as opposed to submitting it in person, and if so, your entire TBD paperwork should be mailed to the court "Certified Mail + Return Receipt Requested" that way you know when it was received and by whom. Again, better safe than sorry.

    Quote Quoting bpat
    View Post
    1) Since I am cited for VC21453(C) Red Arrow violation and since the report shows that there is no Red arrow at the intersection, I am going to argue the case as you mentioned in your previous message.
    I think you got it straight!

    Quote Quoting bpat
    View Post
    Do you think I would need anything else as an evidence other than what I have currently?
    I always suggest it would be best to find an alternative plan, but in this case, the only alternative we could come up with through our long discussion, is your word against the officer's. We both know how that won't fly so its up to you to include it as a "#2" or leave it out altogether.

    Quote Quoting bpat
    View Post
    2) I am also cited for VC16028(A) Fail to provide Evidence of Financial Responsibility (Proof of Insurance violation). I was driving my friend's car and his glove box would not open at that time for me to show the officer the proof of insurance. I have submitted the proof with the bail amount I sent. In the Statement of Fact should I also be contesting this violation? Should I include the details of this violation and also attach the insurance proof?
    I would shy away from cluttering your declaration with material that is not needed. But again your case, proceed as you feel comfortable. My advice would be to simply either check online or contact the court for confirmation that this part was handled already. If it has been handled, I would simply include a one line comment at the end indicating that "Proof of correction for the VC 16028(a) violation was submitted to the court and the related violation as indicated on the citation was dismissed by the clerk" (or words to that effect). Hopefully you were also able to submit an additional $25 along with the bail amount to cover the administrative fee required for the dismissal of the 16028(a) violation.

    Quote Quoting bpat
    View Post
    Should I include description for both violations in the same Statement of facts or should I write 2 separate ones?
    Perfect example of why you should keep it as simple as possible...

    Do Not.
    Under Any Circumstances.
    Submit Two Separate Statements.

    Judges have a lot on their minds and are often confused by the simplest tasks... Well, may be not often, but you catch my drift.

    Quote Quoting bpat
    View Post
    3) I had seen a template letter from someone who had a similar case and for whom you reviewed the letter. I am planning to use the same template as this is my first correspondence with a court authority. I will prepare the draft for my case.
    Well, get on it Pops... The 25h is quickly approaching. You still have to pack it and mail it all before Friday to ensure the court will get it on or before Tuesday!

    Quote Quoting bpat
    View Post
    Will you be able to please review it to see if the language and the format are correct?
    I will try my best!

  10. #30

    Default Re: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed

    I would shy away from cluttering your declaration with material that is not needed. But again your case, proceed as you feel comfortable. My advice would be to simply either check online or contact the court for confirmation that this part was handled already. If it has been handled, I would simply include a one line comment at the end indicating that "Proof of correction for the VC 16028(a) violation was submitted to the court and the related violation as indicated on the citation was dismissed by the clerk" (or words to that effect). Hopefully you were also able to submit an additional $25 along with the bail amount to cover the administrative fee required for the dismissal of the 16028(a) violation.


    >> I had asked the clerk on the phone about the proof of insurance and he mentioned that the commissioner looking over the case will make the decision. I did that before sending the bail amount. I will check back with a clerk tomorrow. But if, what he mentioned is the case, should I just include the line "Proof of correction for the VC 16028(a) violation was submitted to the court." Or do I need to add anything more?

    Also, the clerk mentioned to post just the bail amount. He did not ask me to send separate $25 check. In this case, what should I be doing? Will they cut it from the bail amount if the case is dismissed or will I have to send it to them separately?

    I will have the Statement of Facts ready by tonight and can upload it by tomorrow. Thanks for your time.

    And yes, I sent my communication through certified mail with the return receipt confirmation option and also made copies of everything.

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