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  1. #11

    Default Re: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed

    Also, let me make one more comment regarding the length of your presentation and/or testimony during a trial. Typically, the court's time is extremely limited by virtue of the number of cases scheduled on calendar each and every day.

    >> Yes, excatly the reason why I am putting out everything I had got on my mind so that I can distinguish between relevant and non-relevant information that I can put it down on my written declaration or can use in court.

    OK, so go back to the location (if you're close by) an hour or so before sunset, use the cross walk to get over to where the dirt patch/traffic light is erected/that train station symbol is (close to the top of the picture) and take a look at whether you can determine which phase the traffic light is in by looking in the general direction of the exit from the shopping center.

    >> Unfortunately, I stay about 2 hours from this place but will try to go one of these weekends to get more information and pictures.

  2. #12
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed

    By the way.. Are you sure that signal displays a red turn arrow for that left turn?

    ETA: Never mind... It is an arrow --> http://maps.google.com/maps?q=rio+rd...,48.95,,1,-1.5

  3. #13

    Default Re: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed

    It is the intersection of Crossroad Blvd and Rio rd. I was lookat the street view from where the bus stop is. Do you think the signal light is visibal from there or only the perpendicular lights are visible? I was coming from the left where there is a red car standing at the light ahead of a metallic grey car in the street view.

    Also, In the street view, I see a solid red but not a red arrow at tthe lights. Could the photo be old and the lights have changed? I do think it was red arrow but could be wrong. Will the traffic/engineering report mention the type of light or will I have to personally go and check it?

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed

    Quote Quoting bpat
    View Post
    It is the intersection of Crossroad Blvd and Rio rd. I was lookat the street view from where the bus stop is. Do you think the signal light is visibal from there or only the perpendicular lights are visible? I was coming from the left where there is a red car standing at the light ahead of a metallic grey car in the street view.
    It would be nearly impossible to tell from a 2 dimensional view.

    Quote Quoting bpat
    View Post
    Also, In the street view, I see a solid red but not a red arrow at tthe lights. Could the photo be old and the lights have changed? I do think it was red arrow but could be wrong. Will the traffic/engineering report mention the type of light or will I have to personally go and check it?
    The engineering report will give an accurate description of the current set up.

    Quote Quoting That Guy
    View Post
    It would be nearly impossible to tell from a 2 dimensional view.
    Edited to add: Actually maybe not so impossible... Here is the view of the signal heads from the #2 lane if he was waiting at the limit line.

  5. #15

    Default Re: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed

    Hi That Guy,
    I called the public works department and asked for the information. The repesentative is going to send the information for type of signal and phase timings. She mentioned over the phone that the timings are as follows

    Yellow: 3 sec
    All red: 1 sec
    Green: min 4 sec

    Intersection length: around 75 - 100 ft.

    Type of singal (she was not sure): Overhead (circular Red) and the one on the far left (could also be circular Red or red arrow. She was not sure).

    Given this information and with the speed I was making the turn, can I make a case that if I made an illegal left turn, I would have had traffic coming on to me since I would have not made it across in time?

    Also, I received a VC 21543(c) violation which states
    "A driver facing a steady red arrow signal shall not enter the intersection to make the movement indicated by the arrow and, unless entering the intersection to make a movement permitted by another signal, shall stop at a clearly marked limit line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, or if none, then before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an indication permitting movement is shown."

    If it is determined that the signal is witout red arrow and just circular red, does that mean anything?

    Does my conversation with the public works representative remain confidential or is it shared with authorities?

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed

    Quote Quoting bpat
    View Post
    Yellow: 3 sec
    As I have stated above, that is pretty standard for a protected left turn arrow. So no dice there.

    Quote Quoting bpat
    View Post
    All red: 1 sec
    It is my understanding that the "all red" phase is simply a bonus, meaning there is no statutory requirement for it.

    Quote Quoting bpat
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    Green: min 4 sec
    Not relevant. (But incredibly short).

    Quote Quoting bpat
    View Post
    Intersection length: around 75 - 100 ft.
    Not going to help much with it being a "range", but there are other challenges that would prohibit an accurate calculation.

    Quote Quoting bpat
    View Post
    Type of singal (she was not sure): Overhead (circular Red) and the one on the far left (could also be circular Red or red arrow. She was not sure).
    Well, we'll find out when you get the report.

    Quote Quoting bpat
    View Post
    Given this information and with the speed I was making the turn, can I make a case that if I made an illegal left turn, I would have had traffic coming on to me since I would have not made it across in time?
    Well, see the problem is (and lets just use your version of the story) you say you entered on yellow, but at which point during that 3 second yellow phase did you actually make entry? And if you are able to determine that specific moment in time when you entered the intersection/crossed the limit line with any degree of certainty, then you would not have to calculate much to come up with a reason for a dismissal; you can simply present that evidence as a way to refute the officer's testimony that you entered on red. Case dismissed!

    Typically when fighting a red light citation, one would hope for a shorter than minimum yellow phase (one that does not comply with the minimum recommendations)... In this case, I was actually hoping for a longer yellow and an even longer red. And that way a rough estimate on how long it would take to make the turn might imply that the other signal could not have shown a green while you were inside the intersection. And hence my reference when I stated "we'll wait for the report and figure that out" (or words to that effect).

    Quote Quoting bpat
    View Post
    Also, I received a VC 21543(c) violation which states
    "A driver facing a steady red arrow signal shall not enter the intersection to make the movement indicated by the arrow and, unless entering the intersection to make a movement permitted by another signal, shall stop at a clearly marked limit line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, or if none, then before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an indication permitting movement is shown."

    If it is determined that the signal is witout red arrow and just circular red, does that mean anything?
    *IF* it is determined that you were not facing any red arrows, then surely, you can argue that you did not violate VC 21453(c)... And it should in theory, get you a dismissal.

    That sure does look like a circular red but don;t get too excited until you receive the report.

    Quote Quoting bpat
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    Does my conversation with the public works representative remain confidential or is it shared with authorities?
    And even if it is, why would that concern you in the least bit?

    You are well within your rights to explore any avenue that might lead you towards a plausible defense. The information you requested and received or are about to receive, could have been part of a discovery request that you would have put through. You chose to get it on your own instead.

    Also, if you are concerned about the officer finding out what you're up to, you can rest assured that he wouldn't care the last bit and his testimony and evidence will not change in the slightest.

    Having said all that, I highly doubt the lady you spoke to would take it upon herself to contact the police agency in your town to report "a caller who's inquiring about traffic light information to defend against his citation". In fact, if she spoke to you, you can bet that she did so as part of her daily duty as an employee of the public agency that employs her; (your tax dollars at work)!!!

  7. #17

    Default Re: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed

    Well, see the problem is (and lets just use your version of the story) you say you entered on yellow, but at which point during that 3 second yellow phase did you actually make entry? And if you are able to determine that specific moment in time when you entered the intersection/crossed the limit line with any degree of certainty, then you would not have to calculate much to come up with a reason for a dismissal; you can simply present that evidence as a way to refute the officer's testimony that you entered on red. Case dismissed!

    >> Even if say I entered the intersection with say 1 sec on yellow remaining + 1 sec of all-red + 1 sec of green (on the perpendicular road) and if I was going at 17 MPH (>15 MPH as mentioend on the ticket), I would have covered (5280 ft * 17)/3600 = 24.9 ft/sec. i.e approx 75 ft in 3 secs. If the intersection is greater than 75 ft (which I think it definately is) then even after making a legal turn, I would not have completed my turn before the perpendicular light turned green and 1 sec had elapsed.

    I will definately wait for the report and calculate using the final numbers. Also, one more issue is that I asked for the length of the intersection but the representative said that they do not have it on file and I will have to roughly calculate using google maps and rulers. Will this be admissible in court or through a Trial by Written Declaration? Also when I looked on the google map, the inner left turn lane circumference looks to be around more than 80ft? Any better way to calculate it?

    And even if it is, why would that concern you in the least bit?

    >> No, I am not worried about the officer finding it out. Just that I am a bit nervous since this is a first CA VC violation I ever received and want to make sure what all things I need to keep track of so that I can answer it correctly.

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed

    Once again... Are you even reading what I am posting

    Quote Quoting bpat
    View Post
    >> Even if say I entered the intersection with say 1 sec on yellow remaining
    1) That is a BIG if right there!!!

    2) Problem is, you "IF" is a hypothetical. And you don't win cases on hypotheticals, you win them based on FACTS.

    3) Your "IF say I entered on yellow" versus the sworn officer's testimony the "defendant entered the intersection/crossed the limit line on red" means ZIPPITY DOODAH ZILCH!

    4) And once again, you're getting into an area that is not likely to be given much leeway by the judge, only this time he won't cut you off because you're taking too long; instead, he'll cut you off because you're not likely to prove much or refute much by going there.

    Quote Quoting bpat
    View Post
    I would not have completed my turn before the perpendicular light turned green and 1 sec had elapsed.
    Nobody cares at what point in time during the process you completed your turn. The code section you were cited for prohibits entering the intersection when the trsffic light is showing a red indication. PERIOD!

    Quote Quoting bpat
    View Post
    I will definately wait for the report and calculate using the final numbers. Also, one more issue is that I asked for the length of the intersection but the representative said that they do not have it on file and I will have to roughly calculate using google maps and rulers. Will this be admissible in court or through a Trial by Written Declaration?
    Nope, not likely!

    Quote Quoting bpat
    View Post
    Also when I looked on the google map, the inner left turn lane circumference looks to be around more than 80ft? Any better way to calculate it?
    Neither your original estimate nor your better way of calculating it will mean much!

    Quote Quoting bpat
    View Post
    >> No, I am not worried about the officer finding it out. Just that I am a bit nervous since this is a first CA VC violation I ever received and want to make sure what all things I need to keep track of so that I can answer it correctly.
    Huh?

  9. #19

    Default Re: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed

    2) Problem is, you "IF" is a hypothetical. And you don't win cases on hypotheticals, you win them based on FACTS.

    >> Thanks That Guy. I understand I am making my argument in a wrong way (hypotheticals) where I should be basing my argument only on facts. I will wait for the paper work to arrive and then upload it. It would be great if you can review it.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
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    98

    Default Re: Red Light Violation Feedback Needed

    Not really on topic, but just wanted to chime in regarding the Min Green.

    The min green exists for when there's very few vehicles. Do you really want to wait for more than 4 sec (green) + 3 sec (yellow) for a single left-turning car?

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