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  1. #1
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    Jul 2011
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    Default Error on Speeding Ticket

    My question involves a speeding ticket from the State of: OH



    I was riding home on I-70 near where I live, and slowed down when I was nearing a typically speed trap. There were 4-5 cops there with people pulled over. At the end of the trap (I was going 65) the officer pulled me over. He stated that they had me going 86 in a 65 by plane a "few miles back."

    Do both the officer in the plane and the ground patrol officer need to show up in court in order? If one does not show up, can the case be dismissed?

    Also, on the ticket there is 2 signature lines for officers. One is for "Charging Law Enforcement Officer" and one is for "Issuing Law Enforcement Officer." I called the patrol department and they stated that the issuing enforcement officer is the one who saw the violation while the charging officer is the one who wrote the ticket. In my circumstance, the "issuing" officer was in the plane (presumably) but the charging officer wrote his name in both areas. Does this mean that (according to the ticket) the office on the ground saw the violation and I can argue as if the estimation from the air does not exist?

    Lastly, is there any defense for estimations via air? It seems wrong to me that they can "estimate" your speed from the air without any proof. Also, I've seen various differences. Does the state need to prove that I was speeding or do I need to prove that I was not speeding.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Error on Speeding Ticket

    The state has the burden of proof.

    I don't know the mechanism by which your speed was estimated; often it's by timing how long it takes your car pass between two specific points - velocity = distance / time. Simple stuff.

    I would expect that, should you have a contested hearing, the officer who measured your speed will be present along with the officer who issued the ticket. No, it won't do you any good to argue that since the officer on the ground issued the ticket, the measurement of your speed does not exist.

  3. #3
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    Mar 2010
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    Default Re: Error on Speeding Ticket

    This sounds like you have a good case for dismissal if the same officer signed as the issuing and charging officer. The officer on the ground cannot testify to your speed at all because he did not observe your speed by his own admission -- the officer in the airplane clearly radioed ahead of you with your alleged speed. If the officer in the plane told him your speed, and did not sign the ticket as the issuing officer, it's called hearsay. If the officer on the ground hand-wrote his own name in both spots, he pretty much signed a dismissal. I would begin by asking the officer that was on the ground how your speed was obtained. Lock him into his answer of "by airplane" by asking him if he is absolutely certain. Next, ask him how he was in an airplane and on the ground at the same time. He will look at you confused. Then ask him if he remembers signing his own name on both the issuing and charging lines on the citation. Ask for a dismissal based on that fact.

    If the officer from the plane shows up and is called by the prosecutor or judge, immediately object to the witness on grounds that the officer is clearly not involved in the case based on what is signed (most likely under penalty of perjury) on the ticket, and can offer no factual evidence to the case.

    Does Ohio have a discovery obligation with regard to traffic courts? You might want to find out and request all the evidence against you.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
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    Seattle
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    3,577

    Default Re: Error on Speeding Ticket

    Speedy, you could not be MORE wrong -- on almost EVERY point you make.

    Quote Quoting Speedy Gonzalez
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    This sounds like you have a good case for dismissal if the same officer signed as the issuing and charging officer.
    How do you figure that? ORC 4511.091 (B) states:

    Quote Quoting ORC 4511.091
    (B) If the driver of a motor vehicle being driven on a public street or highway of this state is observed violating any provision of this chapter other than section 4511.21 or 4511.211 of the Revised Code by a law enforcement officer situated at any location, including in any type of airborne aircraft or airship, that law enforcement officer may send a radio message to another law enforcement officer, and the other law enforcement officer may arrest the driver of the motor vehicle until a warrant can be obtained or may issue the driver a citation for the violation; provided, if an arrest or citation is based on such a message, the radio message is dispatched immediately after the violation is observed and the law enforcement officer who observes the violation furnishes to the law enforcement officer who makes the arrest or issues the citation a description of the alleged violation and the motor vehicle for proper identification.
    Thus, since one officer CAN issue a citation based on information from another, that officer is "charging" you (based on the information from the other officer) and "issuing" the ticket.

    Quote Quoting Speedy Gonzalez
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    The officer on the ground cannot testify to your speed at all because he did not observe your speed by his own admission -- the officer in the airplane clearly radioed ahead of you with your alleged speed.
    True, and in court the officer who issued the citation will identify the defendant. The other officer will testify as to the defendant's speed.

    Quote Quoting Speedy Gonzalez
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    If the officer in the plane told him your speed, and did not sign the ticket as the issuing officer, it's called hearsay.
    You evidently don't understand "hearsay" nor its application. Hearsay relates to the Rules of Evidence which pertain to a TRIAL or HEARING. A "charging document" does NOT have to comply with the Rules of Evidence. There only needs to be "reasonable suspicion" to issue the citation.

    Quote Quoting Speedy Gonzalez
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    If the officer on the ground hand-wrote his own name in both spots, he pretty much signed a dismissal.
    Wow! Unbelievable.

    Quote Quoting Speedy Gonzalez
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    I would begin by asking the officer that was on the ground how your speed was obtained. Lock him into his answer of "by airplane" by asking him if he is absolutely certain. Next, ask him how he was in an airplane and on the ground at the same time. He will look at you confused.
    Confused? Speedy, you're the only one confused around here.

    Quote Quoting Speedy Gonzalez
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    Then ask him if he remembers signing his own name on both the issuing and charging lines on the citation. Ask for a dismissal based on that fact.
    And the judge will probably find you guilty instead.

    Quote Quoting Speedy Gonzalez
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    If the officer from the plane shows up and is called by the prosecutor or judge, immediately object to the witness on grounds that the officer is clearly not involved in the case based on what is signed (most likely under penalty of perjury) on the ticket, and can offer no factual evidence to the case.
    You can object all you want, but the officer from the plane WILL be allowed to testify, just as ANY witness to ANY crime or other violation would be allowed to testify.

    Quote Quoting Speedy Gonzalez
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    Does Ohio have a discovery obligation with regard to traffic courts? You might want to find out and request all the evidence against you.
    This is the ONLY "good" advice you've handed out. I agree. If OH law permits it, file a Discovery Request.

    OP, one point for you to work on is the condition that "the radio message is dispatched immediately after the violation is observed". According to what you stated, the officer indicated that your violation was "a few miles back". A few miles, even at 80 MPH, would take several minutes. That would NOT appear to be "immediately". It's just a thought.

    Barry

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
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    Default Re: Error on Speeding Ticket

    All praise the mighty barry. He knows all, he sees all. He is the law. Even in Ohio.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
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    Seattle
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    Default Re: Error on Speeding Ticket

    Actually, I know "a little". However, I do my research BEFORE I post. Do I make mistakes? Yep, sure do. But, I'm man enough to admit it when I do. And I don't "mock" the person who points out my mistakes.

    Barry

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
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    Toledo, OH
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    Default Re: Error on Speeding Ticket

    Quote Quoting Speedy Gonzalez
    View Post
    All praise the mighty barry. He knows all, he sees all. He is the law. Even in Ohio.
    Knock it off.

    Barry gives GREAT advice when it comes to speeding tickets, and never advises that people get up to stupid shenanigans in court like asking the officer if he remembers signing his name. As it happens, I live in Ohio, and pulling that stunt will lead to the judge asking if you ate a bowl of dumbass for breakfast, or are you just naturally that dense? We have the meanest traffic courts in the Union, and they WILL NOT play.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Error on Speeding Ticket

    I do like the idea that the pilot measuring speed from an aircraft has to land the plane, race over to the car whose speed he measured and personally issue a ticket. Why not argue it in court - the judge will probably need a good laugh by the time your case is called.

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