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  1. #1
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    Default Police Right to Search for Weapon

    My question involves police conduct in the State of: California

    Here's the scenario:
    A female trainee PI (a person in the employ of a licensed PI from whom she gets a W-2 form and is receiving training with a view to becoming a licensed PI in due course) has a current and clear CCW permit and carries an NAA mini-revolver for self-defense off duty. On duty, she is not supposed to be armed, but she carries the weapon anyway in her purse or strapped to her leg under her pants) because 'criminals aren't too fussy about the law and she'd rather be alive and in trouble than dead.' A police officer has never seen the weapon in the female's possession while she's been on duty, but is aware that the case she's currently investigating could well be dangerous. He suspects, therefore, that the female 'trainee PI' may be armed.

    Here are the questions:
    1 Is the police officer entitled to search the PI's person or purse?
    2 If he is, what charges ensue?
    3 If he isn't, what happens?
    4 If, while on the job, the trainee PI saves her life or that of an innocent party by shooting the criminal, what action is taken against the trainee PI (apart from hugs and kisses from the innocent party)?

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Police Right to Search for Weapon

    Quote Quoting John Truman
    A police officer has never seen the weapon in the female's possession while she's been on duty, but is aware that the case she's currently investigating could well be dangerous. He suspects, therefore, that the female 'trainee PI' may be armed.

    1 Is the police officer entitled to search the PI's person or purse?
    A police officer needs reasonable and articulable suspicion to detain a person (other than at a constitutional checkpoint). (Terry v. Ohio, S.Ct. 1968) Once detained, the officer needs a reasonable and articulable suspicion, based on the nature of the stop, in order to frisk for weapons. I think pressing on a purse to detect a possible weapon would be part of an acceptable frisk.

    However, I doubt that the officer knowing that the trainee PI was in a dangerous situation would qualify for a Terry stop.

    2 If he is, what charges ensue?
    I'm not familiar with such charges. No doubt cdwjava would know.

    3 If he isn't, what happens?
    I assume you mean, "If he is not entitled to frisk here, but does anyway, and finds a weapon, what happens?"

    Keep in mind that I am not an oracle. Only an oracle would know for sure whether the officer was entitled to frisk her. So the real question is, "If he frisks her and finds a weapon, what happens?" I suggest that your trainee may need to go to court to defend herself from a serious charge. Is it worth it?

    4 If, while on the job, the trainee PI saves her life or that of an innocent party by shooting the criminal, what action is taken against the trainee PI (apart from hugs and kisses from the innocent party)?
    It depends on the circumstances. Maybe the trainee is acclaimed as a heroine. Maybe the trainee is charged with murder. It all depends on the circumstances. Shooting a criminal is sometimes a crime.

    Maybe a more practical course of action is to be a lot more careful off-duty.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Police Right to Search for Weapon

    Despite what the PI thinks about criminals, the state of California has strict requirements for those in security services to be armed. She's breaking the law.
    As the state points out, protection of the PUBLIC outweighs the protection of the PI in this case. The probable outcomes would certainly be a FINE or possible license action against her and her employer.

    You do know that if she shoots someone, she's likely to incur criminal charges? PIs, much less, trainee PIs, aren't given free reign to go around shooting people just because a crime is being committed.

    She's seriously jeopardizing her career as a PI (and any other in law enforcement) by violating the firearms restrictions.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Police Right to Search for Weapon

    Quote Quoting John Truman
    View Post
    Here's the scenario:
    A female trainee PI (a person in the employ of a licensed PI from whom she gets a W-2 form and is receiving training with a view to becoming a licensed PI in due course) has a current and clear CCW permit and carries an NAA mini-revolver for self-defense off duty. On duty, she is not supposed to be armed, but she carries the weapon anyway in her purse or strapped to her leg under her pants) because 'criminals aren't too fussy about the law and she'd rather be alive and in trouble than dead.' A police officer has never seen the weapon in the female's possession while she's been on duty, but is aware that the case she's currently investigating could well be dangerous. He suspects, therefore, that the female 'trainee PI' may be armed.
    What class is this for?

    Here are the questions:
    1 Is the police officer entitled to search the PI's person or purse?
    With consent, sure. With probable cause, sure. If all the officer has is a suspicion that she might be carrying a gun in the purse, the officer cannot compel a search ... though the officer can ask whether she has a gun and/or whether he can search.

    2 If he is, what charges ensue?
    If she has a valid CCW, none.

    3 If he isn't, what happens?
    The officer and the PI go on their merry ways.

    4 If, while on the job, the trainee PI saves her life or that of an innocent party by shooting the criminal, what action is taken against the trainee PI (apart from hugs and kisses from the innocent party)?
    The PI could face criminal charges for her actions until a finding of self defense is made.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Police Right to Search for Weapon

    I entirely accept that she's breaking the law (or would be if this were not hypothetical), but does a police officer have legal grounds to search her in the scenario as described? If he doesn't, would it be possible still to make a case against her, or would the evidence be deemed inadmissible?

    Please be aware I'm not suggesting it would be right for her to go about with a gun. I'd like everyone not to do so. My original question was motivated by the fact that purses, especially the totes now in fashion (unless I'm out of date again) make it much easier for a female to carry a weapon secretly than it is for a man. They don't let purses into museums in some places, but that's not the same, is it, as a police officer searching a purse on a hunch? Or is it?

    Thanks for the first reply, by the way.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Police Right to Search for Weapon

    carries an NAA mini-revolver for self-defense off duty

    Really? This gun has little to no value as a self defense weapon. So you are risking a lot for getting nothing in return.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Police Right to Search for Weapon

    Quote Quoting John Truman
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    I entirely accept that she's breaking the law (or would be if this were not hypothetical), but does a police officer have legal grounds to search her in the scenario as described? If he doesn't, would it be possible still to make a case against her, or would the evidence be deemed inadmissible?
    What law is she breaking? Maybe I have not had my coffee just yet, but if she has a valid CCW, she is not breaking the law for carrying a concealed weapon.

    Her restriction against carrying a weapon "on duty" is an issue for the employer, not for her. She would not be breaking the law though she might be violating her employer's rules.

    And a search would only be valid with articulable probable cause, or consent. Purse or not, it would not matter - the law remains the same.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Police Right to Search for Weapon

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
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    And a search would only be valid with articulable probable cause, or consent. Purse or not, it would not matter - the law remains the same.
    since the OP didn't give much of an explanation of the scenario so it's hard to figure out where he is going with it but;

    Since she is known to carry a weapon, if the contact was in the context of investigating the PI, I would think the knowledge of the PI typically carrying a weapon would be more than adequate justification for a terry frisk.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Police Right to Search for Weapon

    cdwjava, hi, and thanks for the reply.

    Your answer is significantly different from the other one I got. If I may, I'd like to focus on the situation where a trainee PI has a valid CCW permit, is carrying a small self-defense weapon, and doesn't fire it. After reading your reply I have two questions:

    1 The BSIS told me that, even with a CCW permit, a trainee PI on a case just couldn't carry a firearm. You, I think, disagree with that, and I found it hard to see why a trainee PI should be in a worse position than any other innocent citizen. So, would you confirm that a trainee PI with a CCW is not committing an illegal act simply by carrrying a firearm while working on a case, please?

    2 You say the police officer may ask if she's carrying a weapon and may ask if he can search her. A while back you told me anyone can ask anything, or words to that effect. So, if she says 'No, I stand on my rights as a citizen not to be searched without a warrant/good reason' or something similar, what can he police officer do? And is she in trouble?

    Not for a case. I'm ignoraphobic - I have a morbid fear of not knowing things, and this seems a good place for answers.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Police Right to Search for Weapon

    Quote Quoting jk
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    since the OP didn't give much of an explanation of the scenario so it's hard to figure out where he is going with it but;

    Since she is known to carry a weapon, if the contact was in the context of investigating the PI, I would think the knowledge of the PI typically carrying a weapon would be more than adequate justification for a terry frisk.
    The scenario as laid out makes NO indication the officer knows about the gun. In fact, he says this: "A police officer has never seen the weapon in the female's possession while she's been on duty."

    So, absent something more, or consent, no search would be lawful.

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