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  1. #1
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    Default How to Get a Police Report for a Case Where Charges Haven't Been Filed

    My question involves criminal law for the state of: California

    A car that I rented was reported stolen by the rental car company to City Police; no warrant for my arrest was issued.

    I was subsequently arrested by County Sheriff Deputy’s + Special Enforcement Bureau (SWAT). I posted bail, but no charges were ever filed; hence no arraignment. After 6 months of court appearances for bail status, the Judge exonerated the bond. I returned home to the East Coast.

    I confirmed with City Police recently that a stolen car report was in fact filed, but since they have no closure on the case, I am not allowed to obtain a copy of the report. They told me to call DA & Sheriff.

    The DA said they have no files on the case and said the Sheriffs took all paperwork back the day of arrest. DA said to call arresting Sheriff agency and local police where report filed.

    The Sheriff’s Deputy told me via phone last week that no charges will ever be filed in this case; decision made the day of arrest 1.5 years ago. He said files cannot be released to me because no charges were filed and suggested I call the DA and city police.

    I contacted the Superior Court – they have no records on file, either. Records did exist on public access site, but disappeared after bond exhoneration.

    Questions, please –

    1. How can I get copies of these reports?
    2. Can arrest be expunged given no charges filed?
    3. Would the filing of police report result in “stolen car” info entered into NCIC SVS?
    4. If civil suit filed against rental car company, is discovery of these documents then mandated?
    5. Would obtaining NCIC and CA DOJ info on myself provide info contained in the reports?
    6. Am I allowed to obtain NCIC, CA DOJ, CA DMV info on the car via VIN, tags, other?

    Thank you for your time.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Obtain Police Arrest/ Incident Reports - No Charges Filed - Rental Car

    Quote Quoting chase8
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    A car that I rented was reported stolen by the rental car company to City Police; no warrant for my arrest was issued.
    Why was it reported stolen? How long overdue was it?

    1. How can I get copies of these reports?
    You can ask. If they refuse, you make a request pursuant to the California Public Records Act citing that the matter is a closed case and no longer an investigative file. They have ten days to respond. if they still say it is an investigative file, you might have to take them to court and hope a judge rules in your favor.

    Question: Why do you want the report?

    2. Can arrest be expunged given no charges filed?
    Yes. You can petition the DA and the court to purge the arrest pursuant to the procedure outlined in PC 851.8.

    3. Would the filing of police report result in “stolen car” info entered into NCIC SVS?
    If reported as STOLEN per CVC 10851 or PC 487, yes.

    4. If civil suit filed against rental car company, is discovery of these documents then mandated?
    It could be.

    What grounds would you sue them? Were you still under contract on the car when they reported it stolen? How long past the return date did you possess the car?

    5. Would obtaining NCIC and CA DOJ info on myself provide info contained in the reports?
    Not much. It might indicate only vehicle info, a case number, date of the report, and name of the suspect - you.

    6. Am I allowed to obtain NCIC, CA DOJ, CA DMV info on the car via VIN, tags, other?
    You can ask for anything, but DOJ and NCIC are not going to give you diddly. You can request info through the DMV for a small fee, but it may not include any info on prior theft reports, only the registration info.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Obtain Police Arrest/ Incident Reports - No Charges Filed - Rental Car

    Hi -

    Thank you for your detailed reply and follow-up questions.

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    Why was it reported stolen? How long overdue was it?

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    Question: Why do you want the report?
    I contend car was not overdue, under contract and have maintained same position since day of arrest. Rental was extended via phone; same procedure I've used for the last 20+ years. This was the 2nd car I had from the Rental car company (RAC) this trip over ~2.5 month period, until arrest. The 1st rental was one-way and was also extended via phone 2 times; no problems on that one.

    I want the report because of conflicting information -
    - Sheriff's said night of arrest that CC no good, rental not paid for, etc...
    - The RAC said same initially. Six months after arrest, the RAC VP Legal Affairs sent FedEx letter stating that vehicle was overdue; contact broken. Ironically, the overnight letter arrived the day after the Judge exonerated bond.

    The RAC charged my bank CC for >> $1,000 three days after police report made. Bank records confirm this but also note the transaction date was back-dated by 3 weeks to coincide with closure date on the final computerized rental agreement. The RAC claims 3-4 weeks is usual business practice for a charge to be posted to CC. However, the charge for the other car I returned hit my account in < 24 hours; same airport location.

    Bank CC account available balance -
    ~ $8,000 on the day car reported stolen
    > $4,000 on the night of arrest


    Quote Quoting chase8
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    2. Can arrest be expunged given no charges filed?

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    Yes. You can petition the DA and the court to purge the arrest pursuant to the procedure outlined in PC 851.8.
    I do see the procedure you linked to, thank you. Some confusion here, though. Per PC 851.8 (a) -
    The law enforcement agency having jurisdiction over the offense,
    upon a determination that the person
    arrested is factually innocent, shall, with the concurrence of the
    prosecuting attorney, seal its arrest records, and the petition for
    relief under this section ...
    Would The law enforcement agency having jurisdiction over the offense be the PD that took report or Sheriff that arrested me (PD is in the same County) and be the one to "..determine... factually innocent..."?

    I have been told the arrest was reclassified as detainment, although I have no written proof of such. ALL records from County Public ACCESS site disappeared after Judge exonerated bond. So, if arrest now considered a "detention", does PC 851.8 still apply, i.e., can a "detainment" be expunged?

    Police that took initial stolen car report say they show no closure to case; closure is Sheriffs job. Police are unable to pull up any info from Court or Sheriff's systems about the case; only the "open" police report they have on file, which police told me I cannot obtain copy because no resolution listed. Said to call DA & Sheriff's.

    Arresting Sheriff said last week "...no charges will ever be filed in this case.... decision made the day of arrest...". He then wished me good luck and told me to call DA & Police. I don't believe a Sheriff's Deputy can say with 100% certainty that no charges would ever be filed.

    DA says they have -0- files; says Sheriff Deputy's took file back the day of arrest. DA told me to call Police & Sheriff.

    This is a never-ending loop to me.


    Quote Quoting chase8
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    3. Would the filing of police report result in “stolen car” info entered into NCIC SVS?
    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    If reported as STOLEN per CVC 10851 or PC 487, yes.
    I obtained booking info from Sheriff Jail web site -
    Code:
    10851(A) F VC TK VEH W/O OWNER'S CNSNT
     496(D) F PC REC KNOWN STOLEN PROP

    Quote Quoting chase8
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    4. If civil suit filed against rental car company, is discovery of these documents then mandated?
    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    It could be.
    Discovery in a civil case was all I could think of to obtain reports/ info I have sought for 21 months now.

    I remained in CA for ~5 months investigating and personally tried to obtain reports without success. My criminal attorney at the time said "ongoing investigation; hence no discovery".

    After returning to NJ/ PA, I sent certified letters; return receipt - which were signed for by Sheriff and Police, but no reply. Phone calls finally returned after 1.5 years, but told to send written request to them for copies of reports.


    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    What grounds would you sue them? Were you still under contract on the car when they reported it stolen? How long past the return date did you possess the car?.
    Negligence, other... looking at potential options and for an attorney in that area. I maintain that contract was in effect as I followed procedures outlined in the RAC contract. A return date was listed, but was open due to multi-month rental, extensions. All original rental agreements lost when vehicle impounded. I have phone records and bank records to prove my end.

    Also, ~2 weeks after the arrest and car impounded, my sister in NJ was contacted very late at night and threatened by AIG. A woman told my sister that if I didn't return the car, a warrant for my arrest would be issued and she would be arrested as an accomplice. She replied ".. you already arrested him...". AIG told my sister they went to my local CA home everyday leaving messages. Problem is I do not nor have I ever owned property in California. The address on the rental agreement was the same on my PA driver's license. No local CA address given because there is none. The car sat in impound lot during the 2 week period since arrest. The RAC retrieved it the next day then stated they knew it was there the whole time.

    After I bonded out, I called & emailed the RAC multiple times/ day; no reply.

    Finally, after sending emails to 1,000s of their employees, Board of Directors, Customer Service, etc... they finally contacted me - after testing my CC for $1 authorization. The regional manager then delivered a garbage bag containing a few soiled clothes to my hotel. ~$2,000 mostly electronics property remains unaccounted for.


    Quote Quoting chase8
    View Post
    5. Would obtaining NCIC and CA DOJ info on myself provide info contained in the reports?
    6. Am I allowed to obtain NCIC, CA DOJ, CA DMV info on the car via VIN, tags, other

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    Not much. It might indicate only vehicle info, a case number, date of the report, and name of the suspect - you.].
    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    You can ask for anything, but DOJ and NCIC are not going to give you diddly. You can request info through the DMV for a small fee, but it may not include any info on prior theft reports, only the registration info.
    I am really after timestamps of NCIC checks/entries (not sure what they're called), if available, e.g., the date vehicle entered into system as stolen, other police checks on me, the vehicle tags, VIN, etc...

    I was involved in minor accident with the car (but other party claimed neck injury) about 3 weeks before arrest. 5 (five) CHP cruisers responded to scene (unincorporated area). I gave the CHP State Troopers the rental agreement and my PA driver's license and informed them that the written contract return date had passed, but rental was extended. One CHP Trooper replied "...that's easy enough to check out...".

    We were on scene for over 1 hour. One CHP Trooper was in his car with my & other drivers documents for most of the time on scene. I find it extremely difficult to believe that me/ rental car info was not run through NCIC. Obviously, had the car come back stolen, I would have been arrested that night.

    More info on this case- http://www.expertlaw.com/forums/show...268#post364268

    I was in upper management at the former #1 car rental company in the 1990s where a similar situation occurred, but no arrest. It was a mistake and we owned up to it and compensated the renter for his inconvenience. I do know that "unaccounted for" rental cars are unfortunately reported to police as "overdue" or "missing/ stolen" with alarming frequency. Usually some computer glitch is responsible.

    To me, either the car was stolen or not. If so, all the RAC had to do was send a rep to court to testify and probably ...... the end. They did not. Furthermore, the RAC never charged/ billed me for loss of use, towing, storage, etc... which under the rental agreement they are entitled to. They just send me bills for damage that primarily occurred during the intensive police search of the vehicle.

    The RAC did alter the final rental agreement changing rates, LDW/CDW acceptance to "NO", and other items. Incredibly, it does show a rental extension fee. I did obtain a copy of the original contract with my signature to compare against the final edited version, but have no written proof of extensions.

    None of this makes sense to me -- doesn't add up at all. There is another element to this case which I will be glad to try and explain, but it makes the whole situation seem even more bizarre than it appears now.

    Thank you for your time. Much appreciated.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Obtain Police Arrest/ Incident Reports - No Charges Filed - Rental Car

    Quote Quoting chase8
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    I contend car was not overdue, under contract and have maintained same position since day of arrest. Rental was extended via phone; same procedure I've used for the last 20+ years. This was the 2nd car I had from the Rental car company (RAC) this trip over ~2.5 month period, until arrest. The 1st rental was one-way and was also extended via phone 2 times; no problems on that one.
    Apparently they had no record of the extension. That may or may not be grounds for a civil suit. If you can show that they knew you extended through the use of credit card payments, etc., you might have a legitimate claim for compensation from them.

    The Sheriff's office would only have the arrest report, and they were apparently relying on the SVS entry and confirmation with the originating agency (the PD that took the report). There would be no liability on their part for acting on a confirmed stolen vehicle. And their report would be unlikely to have any information on the theft, only the observation, arrest, and recovery/disposition of the vehicle. The report from the originating police agency would have the information from the complaining party and information on entry to SVS.

    Getting information directly from CLETS or NCIC could be about as easy as doing root canal on yourself. It will take years if they give up anything at all. Your best bet would be to obtain the information from the original police report either through a CPRA request, or, if that is denied, then through subpoena if you ever get a suit filed against the rental company.

    I have been told the arrest was reclassified as detainment, although I have no written proof of such. ALL records from County Public ACCESS site disappeared after Judge exonerated bond. So, if arrest now considered a "detention", does PC 851.8 still apply, i.e., can a "detainment" be expunged?
    Yes. If you were fingerprinted and photographed at a jail or booking facility, then you now have a state criminal offender record. Granted, it will show no charges filed or no disposition, but it will still be there. Unless you can get all relevant parties to sign off on it or get a judge to order the record purged, it will remain in the local police files as well as in state CORI (criminal offender) files.

    Arresting Sheriff said last week "...no charges will ever be filed in this case.... decision made the day of arrest...". He then wished me good luck and told me to call DA & Police. I don't believe a Sheriff's Deputy can say with 100% certainty that no charges would ever be filed.
    No, he can't. But, they do have control of what gets sent to the DA and if they are not sending it to the DA, and the reporting agency (PD) is not sending it, then no charges will get filed.

    This is a never-ending loop to me.
    It certainly can seem that way. And until you get an active civil suit against someone (likely the rental agency ... maybe) then you have no subpoena ability, either. You can rely on the CPRA but the agencies involved will likely argue that they are exempt per GC 6254(f) as they are investigative files. They might lose if you took it to court, but that would also take time. And if you have a case for a suit against the rental agency for some sort of negligence, you can probably get them via subpoena anyway

    I obtained booking info from Sheriff Jail web site -
    Code:
    10851(A) F VC TK VEH W/O OWNER'S CNSNT
     496(D) F PC REC KNOWN STOLEN PROP
    That's silly as you cannot pursue both a theft charge and a receiving stolen property charge on the same offense. You either stole it or were in possession of property you knew to be stolen. But, as the DA did not file on it, apparently, it would appear to be moot.

    Discovery in a civil case was all I could think of to obtain reports/ info I have sought for 21 months now.
    Since the law enforcement agencies would not likely be a party to any lawsuit, you'd have to seek them through subpoena and not discovery.

    I am really after timestamps of NCIC checks/entries (not sure what they're called), if available, e.g., the date vehicle entered into system as stolen, other police checks on me, the vehicle tags, VIN, etc...
    The dispatch logs might be available for a time, but after 21 months a lot of that info MIGHT be gone. You might try a separate CPRA request for the related dispatch logs for your incident from the Sheriff's office, and maybe even for the original PD report. They won't include all the detail,. but it will give you a timeline of events and might include the date and time of SVS entry/removal dependin gon the nature of their CAD (computer aided dispatch) systems.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Obtain Police Arrest/ Incident Reports - No Charges Filed - Rental Car

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    Apparently they had no record of the extension. That may or may not be grounds for a civil suit. If you can show that they knew you extended through the use of credit card payments, etc., you might have a legitimate claim for compensation from them.
    Yes, "no record of extension" is their contention. CC statement shows they charged my account 3 days after reporting the car stolen. Final RAC receipt numbers are contradictory, indicating manual override/ alteration, e.g.-

    - Rental extension fee listed (but not duration)
    - Total miles driven = 1 (one)
    - Fuel in = 0/8; fuel out = 8/8 (charged for fuel)
    - Rental duration listed = 11.1 days
    - Rental rate code = M (monthly)
    - Rental rate = 0 months @ $999 (no daily, weekly, hourly rates listed & $999 differs from original contract)
    - Acceptance of LDW = NO (original signed contract = YES)


    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    Getting information directly from CLETS or NCIC could be about as easy as doing root canal on yourself. It will take years if they give up anything at all. Your best bet would be to obtain the information from the original police report either through a CPRA request, or, if that is denied, then through subpoena if you ever get a suit filed against the rental company.
    The root canal analogy is exactly what I've experienced so far. I do know that a Member of Congress can request NCIC information on my behalf. Not sure if results/ timing would be any different, though.


    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    Yes. If you were fingerprinted and photographed at a jail or booking facility, then you now have a state criminal offender record. Granted, it will show no charges filed or no disposition, but it will still be there. Unless you can get all relevant parties to sign off on it or get a judge to order the record purged, it will remain in the local police files as well as in state CORI (criminal offender) files.
    Yes on both. I imagine it will be quite an ordeal to get all parties to sign off on a finding of factual innocence, unfortunately, but it's worth a try.


    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    It certainly can seem that way. And until you get an active civil suit against someone (likely the rental agency ... maybe) then you have no subpoena ability, either. You can rely on the CPRA but the agencies involved will likely argue that they are exempt per GC 6254(f) as they are investigative files. They might lose if you took it to court, but that would also take time. And if you have a case for a suit against the rental agency for some sort of negligence, you can probably get them via subpoena anyway
    Yes, they all claim I cannot have copies of reports because "active investigation" whenever I make such request, yet each says there is no case, sends me to the others, which keeps me running in circles!


    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    The dispatch logs might be available for a time, but after 21 months a lot of that info MIGHT be gone. You might try a separate CPRA request for the related dispatch logs for your incident from the Sheriff's office, and maybe even for the original PD report. They won't include all the detail,. but it will give you a timeline of events and might include the date and time of SVS entry/removal dependin gon the nature of their CAD (computer aided dispatch) systems.
    I didn't give thought to the local dispatch logs and will ask my future civil attorney about them. I do understand that time is not on my side.


    Code:
    10851(A) F VC TK VEH W/O OWNER'S CNSNT
      496(D) F PC REC KNOWN STOLEN PROP
    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    That's silly as you cannot pursue both a theft charge and a receiving stolen property charge on the same offense. You either stole it or were in possession of property you knew to be stolen. But, as the DA did not file on it, apparently, it would appear to be moot.
    I agree - moot point; however, your reply hit me like a brick because for the last 1.75 years, I had been under the impression that there was a warrant out for me, but I was mistaken (learned this fact just a few weeks ago). The events of that fateful night seem more distorted to me now than ever. . .

    - I have confirmed - no warrant for my arrest was ever issued
    - The rental car was parked on a public street
    - The keys were inside the locked car (combination keypad on door)
    - The Sheriff Deputys later said they were on routine patrol & randomly running tags
    - I was no where near the car at the time of arrest (and no keys on me)
    - I walked out the front door of my step-sister's home side-by-side with her husband, who is similar age, description, etc...
    - Only I was ordered to the ground and arrested
    - My step brother-in-law just stood there as if nothing was happening

    If the Deputys were "acting on a confirmed stolen vehicle" because of tag run (& had no warrant with description), what would PC have been? Or maybe I should ask - at what point, if any, during the scenario I've described, would I have been considered in possession of the vehicle and subject to arrest? I've researched 'legal possession' and don't see a fit here.

    If I may ask, what is normal police procedure when you come upon a confirmed stolen vehicle parked on a public street?

    I'm not really sure what to ask about this last part... just confusion here.

    Thank you for your time.

    `

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Obtain Police Arrest/ Incident Reports - No Charges Filed - Rental Car

    Quote Quoting chase8
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    Yes, "no record of extension" is their contention. CC statement shows they charged my account 3 days after reporting the car stolen. Final RAC receipt numbers are contradictory, indicating manual override/ alteration, e.g.-
    You are free to use that in a civil suit against the company, should you wish to do so. It may r may not be compelling enough to allow an award for damages and pain and suffering. You'll have to speak with an attorney about that.

    The root canal analogy is exactly what I've experienced so far. I do know that a Member of Congress can request NCIC information on my behalf. Not sure if results/ timing would be any different, though.
    Unless the Congress critter wants to go to jail, even he or she cannot provide that to you. In fact, he or she is not legally permitted to access that information on his or her own. I suspect the request will be denied without a court order since whoever would release it to the Congress person would be subject to criminal charges.

    Yes on both. I imagine it will be quite an ordeal to get all parties to sign off on a finding of factual innocence, unfortunately, but it's worth a try.
    If no charges were filed and there appears to be an acknowledgement from the rental company that you did pay for the extension, then such a finding should be quite possible.

    Yes, they all claim I cannot have copies of reports because "active investigation" whenever I make such request, yet each says there is no case, sends me to the others, which keeps me running in circles!
    Hence the reason to contact an attorney, make a claim for damages to the rental company, if they refuse file suit, and then obtain documents via subpoena.

    I didn't give thought to the local dispatch logs and will ask my future civil attorney about them. I do understand that time is not on my side.
    You should be able to get the logs or dispatch records through the CPRA ... at least some of them

    If the Deputys were "acting on a confirmed stolen vehicle" because of tag run (& had no warrant with description), what would PC have been?
    The probable cause to believe the vehicle was stolen would be the confirmed hit in SVS.

    Or maybe I should ask - at what point, if any, during the scenario I've described, would I have been considered in possession of the vehicle and subject to arrest? I've researched 'legal possession' and don't see a fit here.
    You were probably the listed suspect and they discovered you had been in the area, with the vehicle, or had recently been with the vehicle. As it is a felony, the probable cause to make an arrest can be a little broader.

    If I may ask, what is normal police procedure when you come upon a confirmed stolen vehicle parked on a public street?
    That depends on the circumstances. When we come across something like this, we might wait for the vehicle to go mobile. Or, we might knock on local doors attempting to contact the person listed as being the suspect and ask him or her about the car. if they say they were driving it or it is their car, they may well go to jail.

    The police appear to have done nothing wrong. If the rental company screwed up, then they should be the target of any claim.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Obtain Police Arrest/ Incident Reports - No Charges Filed - Rental Car

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
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    You are free to use that in a civil suit against the company, should you wish to do so. It may r may not be compelling enough to allow an award for damages and pain and suffering. You'll have to speak with an attorney about that.
    I am seeking an attorney in that county for purposes of civil litigation against car rental company; not police.

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    If no charges were filed and there appears to be an acknowledgement from the rental company that you did pay for the extension, then such a finding should be quite possible..
    No charges were ever filed; area in bold - I have proof of; why the RAC won't acknowledge such defies logic.


    Quote Quoting cdwjava
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    Hence the reason to contact an attorney, make a claim for damages to the rental company, if they refuse file suit, and then obtain documents via subpoena.
    Do you mean that even if I hire an attorney, the attorney could then refuse to file on my behalf?

    Can I on my own obtain documents via subpoena without an attorney? Or is that something that an attorney must answer?


    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    You should be able to get the logs or dispatch records through the CPRA ... at least some of them
    Is THIS the CPRA you are referring to? Should my request be to the State or to the County Sheriff's Department?


    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    The probable cause to believe the vehicle was stolen would be the confirmed hit in SVS.
    Thank you... I was trying to better understand the link between PC and my arrest considering I was not in the car at the time.


    Quote Quoting cdwjava
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    You were probably the listed suspect and they discovered you had been in the area, with the vehicle, or had recently been with the vehicle....
    "they discovered..."? Would/ could this be info supplied by 3rd party tip to police? I would think if police themselves discovered before-hand it would have been by sight (assuming no 3rd party), which would have resulted in immediate arrest.

    I did have a traffic-related encounter with police ~ 3 weeks after PD stolen car report made; ~ 2 weeks prior to arrest, while driving the vehicle in question in an unincorporated Orange County beach city.

    Five CHP State Troopers arrived on scene following a minor traffic accident on PCH. I provided CHP with my PA driver's license and the expired RAC rental agreement and explained rental extension. One CHP trooper said "..that's easy enough to check out.." and proceeded to his marked cruiser. Over the next hour, CHP took my statement and that of other driver. I was given back my paperwork, told "all checked out" and sent on my way; same with other driver.

    I also provided CHP with the business card of a local hotel a few blocks away that I had been staying at for ~5 weeks prior to accident and remained at same hotel for another ~3 weeks.

    The CHP trooper in his car was a few feet away and I could easily hear him on the radio and observed him typing on the computer. What I don't understand - if PD stolen vehicle report made 3 weeks prior, why I was not arrested/ car taken from me that night? It makes no sense to me.


    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    Unless the Congress critter wants to go to jail, even he or she cannot provide that to you. In fact, he or she is not legally permitted to access that information on his or her own. I suspect the request will be denied without a court order since whoever would release it to the Congress person would be subject to criminal charges.
    I don't mean to sound argumentative, but the FBI NCIC Use Constraints states -
    ...To a Member of Congress or staff acting upon the member's behalf whom the member or staff requests the information on behalf of and at the request of the individual who is the subject of the record;...
    Is there an area I missed?

    Quote Quoting chase8
    View Post
    If I may ask, what is normal police procedure when you come upon a confirmed stolen vehicle parked on a public street?
    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    That depends on the circumstances. When we come across something like this, we might wait for the vehicle to go mobile. Or, we might knock on local doors attempting to contact the person listed as being the suspect and ask him or her about the car. if they say they were driving it or it is their car, they may well go to jail.
    Thank you, I was just curious.

    In my situation, I was at my step-sister's home, located in a remote unincorporated city on the extreme edge of the desert, for < 10 minutes. My step-brother-in-law and I exited the home, walked down a few steps and once cleared the left side wall into the front yard, the Sheriffs "popped" out of a boat in the driveway, came out from hiding behind cars, etc... arms extended, guns, shotguns pointed at me, then other cruisers "lit up" down the street and sped in. I subsequently learned the SET Team was present, too.

    While I was on the ground being cuffed and before I could say a word, an older, seinor-type officer (white shirt, gold badge as I recall), walked up and said to my step-bro-in-law, "Dennis, lets go inside...". Dennis had been standing next to me when all hell broke loose, yet remained standing; did not go to the ground.

    I could not fathom how (or why) all those police officers arrived on scene and were set up given < 10 minute time-frame, which would also have included running the tags.

    If I may ask, is this in anyway a scenario that could have occurred without prior knowledge that I would be at the home at a specified time? I ask because my step-sister and husband called me repeatedly that day to make sure I knew to come by exactly at the specified time.

    Also, if I may - do you normally contact RAC company for verification? If no arrest warrant as in this case, and RAC says "recover the car", is it then within your descretion whether to arrest or not (assuming no warrant and no admission)?

    One of the two Deputys that remained with me after the hour+ search of vehicle said he would contact RAC (while search was occurring); not sure if contact with RAC ever made.

    Well into the search of the car and contents, one Deputy came over to me and asked "why are you here; what business do you have here..", etc... I looked up at him and said ".. you mean here at the home of my step-sister of 25 years...?". His facial expression then turned to one of astonishment; confusion.

    He replied "you mean that you and Vickie. . . that you and Vickie are family?? (then very loudly) -- FAMILY..???" (just to note: I said 'step-sister' - did not say 'Vickie'). He then turned toward the street; his arms flapped down to his side. The police involved in vehicle search looked over and seemed frozen in place; appeared stunned. The search then ceased immediately.

    They all then gathered in the street and mild arguing ensued. Then a Sergeant (?? - maybe Lieutenant) arrived on scene. More talking followed by outright loud arguments occurred. The Sergeant then got out of his car and said (loudly) "... I don't care....he needs to be taught a lesson...".

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    The police appear to have done nothing wrong. If the rental company screwed up, then they should be the target of any claim.
    I agree and have no intention of filing against the police. I just want the reports mentioned in this thread.

    I don't believe the were police negligent or remiss in their duties, but I do think there are other factors involved which contributed heavily to the events of that fateful night, namely 3rd party influence/ lies by my step-sister and her husband to police to save themselves from incarceration. I'll locate and post redacted info.

    I greatly appreciate your replies and of course I thank you for your time.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Obtain Police Arrest/ Incident Reports - No Charges Filed - Rental Car

    Quote Quoting chase8
    View Post
    Do you mean that even if I hire an attorney, the attorney could then refuse to file on my behalf?
    Well, I suppose they could. But, what I meant was that if you file a claim for damages with the rental company, and the rental company refuses the claim, that is when the lawsuit typically gets filed.

    Can I on my own obtain documents via subpoena without an attorney? Or is that something that an attorney must answer?
    You would have to have an active case before you could obtain a subpoena. Yes, you can do it yourself. But, the rental company will have a team of lawyers ... you have yourself. The odds of prevailing would not be that good, and they could probably drag this on for years.

    Is THIS the CPRA you are referring to? Should my request be to the State or to the County Sheriff's Department?
    Well, that is for the CPRA as it relates to the state DOT, but it is the same set of laws.

    The agency involved should have a policy regarding public records and how to ask for them. Call or go there first and ask how you would get them. Should they deny you, then seek a remedy by pursuing a CPRA request. I do not see why they could deny the dispatch logs.

    "they discovered..."? Would/ could this be info supplied by 3rd party tip to police? I would think if police themselves discovered before-hand it would have been by sight (assuming no 3rd party), which would have resulted in immediate arrest.
    Yes, the info could be third hand.

    If the SVS hit said that the suspect was Chase8 and someone else said that Chase8 was in the area, they could more than likely articulate probable cause to make that arrest, absolutely.

    The CHP trooper in his car was a few feet away and I could easily hear him on the radio and observed him typing on the computer. What I don't understand - if PD stolen vehicle report made 3 weeks prior, why I was not arrested/ car taken from me that night? It makes no sense to me.
    I could speculate, but but it would be guesswork.

    CHP is notorious for not running people or cars for wants (i.e. active warrants). It could have slipped through the cracks. Normally, I would suggest the delay was because the DA was seeking a warrant and the agency would not enter the vehicle as stolen without the warrant for your arrest (this is what SVS generally requires in the case of most embezzled vehicles ... rentals do not hold to the same process, usually. It most likely was because someone wanted to get more info before they would enter it.

    Or, the initial report was not the final date of report ... or, the agency has a grace period they give before entering it ... or, ... who knows?

    I don't mean to sound argumentative, but the FBI NCIC Use Constraints states -
    Is there an area I missed?
    It's not as easy as it sounds ... and, they aren't going to provide it to you (or should not). Granted, Congress-critters can often act outside the law with impunity, but I suspect the FBI would get its panties in a bunch if some Congressman obtained and then turned over any NCIC info to you - an unauthorized party.

    There are ways for the information to be obtained, but there are also a myriad of laws covering misuse and unlawful dissemination. If the Congressman or staffer were able to get it, that does not mean he or she can pass it along to you. No statute seems to permit that, and from all the training I have had, it would be strictly prohibited under state and federal law.

    In my situation, I was at my step-sister's home, located in a remote unincorporated city on the extreme edge of the desert, for < 10 minutes. My step-brother-in-law and I exited the home, walked down a few steps and once cleared the left side wall into the front yard, the Sheriffs "popped" out of a boat in the driveway, came out from hiding behind cars, etc... arms extended, guns, shotguns pointed at me, then other cruisers "lit up" down the street and sped in. I subsequently learned the SET Team was present, too.
    A stolen car is a felony and the suspects in a stolen car are generally presumed armed and dangerous.

    When we stop one on the street, we point lots of guns at them and call them out very carefully before proning them out or forcing them to kneel uncomfortably while they get cuffed, searched, and then thrown into a patrol car while the car is cleared. It is not something we take lightly.

    I am surprised they had so many people looking for you, but, I suppose if they have nothing else going on ...

    While I was on the ground being cuffed and before I could say a word, an older, seinor-type officer (white shirt, gold badge as I recall), walked up and said to my step-bro-in-law, "Dennis, lets go inside...". Dennis had been standing next to me when all hell broke loose, yet remained standing; did not go to the ground.

    I could not fathom how (or why) all those police officers arrived on scene and were set up given < 10 minute time-frame, which would also have included running the tags.
    I suppose that info might be in any police report. It could be they got tipped off ... it could be some deputy got lucky ... or, maybe someone called in a suspicious vehicle. In the end, it really does not matter how they found you, they did.

    If I may ask, is this in anyway a scenario that could have occurred without prior knowledge that I would be at the home at a specified time? I ask because my step-sister and husband called me repeatedly that day to make sure I knew to come by exactly at the specified time.
    Could be they had been in touch with the cops. If the cops knew your name, chances are they were waiting for you to come to roost somewhere.

    Also, if I may - do you normally contact RAC company for verification? If no arrest warrant as in this case, and RAC says "recover the car", is it then within your descretion whether to arrest or not (assuming no warrant and no admission)?
    That confirmation comes in the form of the report and the employee signing the CHP-180 (the stolen vehicle report). The officer is not likely to call the VP, the Pres., and the CFO for confirmation. With the report and probable cause to believe the vehicle is stolen, the entry is made into SVS.

    He replied "you mean that you and Vickie. . . that you and Vickie are family?? (then very loudly) -- FAMILY..???" (just to note: I said 'step-sister' - did not say 'Vickie'). He then turned toward the street; his arms flapped down to his side. The police involved in vehicle search looked over and seemed frozen in place; appeared stunned. The search then ceased immediately.
    Cops know people ... I know people by name all over my town, so if it would not be unusual for an officer who has worked in an area long enough to know someone. It could be that the info they had and what they observed at the scene and heard from you sounded peculiar ... no way for me to know.

    I don't believe the were police negligent or remiss in their duties, but I do think there are other factors involved which contributed heavily to the events of that fateful night, namely 3rd party influence/ lies by my step-sister and her husband to police to save themselves from incarceration. I'll locate and post redacted info.
    If family made knowing and intentional false statements to the police, you can act on that in civil court. Not sure what they could have said that was untrue, but, if they characterized you as an armed bank robber and there was no foundation to that claim, then you might have some sort of claim against them ... though, you would likely have been arrested anyway as a result of your being in possession of a stolen car.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Obtain Police Arrest/ Incident Reports - No Charges Filed - Rental Car

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    what I meant was that if you file a claim for damages with the rental company, and the rental company refuses the claim, that is when the lawsuit typically gets filed.

    You would have to have an active case before you could obtain a subpoena. Yes, you can do it yourself. But, the rental company will have a team of lawyers ... you have yourself. The odds of prevailing would not be that good, and they could probably drag this on for years.
    Thank you for clarification.

    The RAC Vice President, Legal Affairs, sent FedEx letter to me (the same day the Judge exonerated bond) denying any wrong doing on their part (Ironic timing as hell to me, but. . .). I am acutely aware of the teams of lawyers a corporation with annual gross revenues of $5.2 Billion would have at their disposal.

    Interesting to note that this case was being settled at the exact time of my incident after neighboring Sheriff's Department and the same RAC lost on appeal.

    http://www.businesswire.com/news/hom...ded-33-Million

    http://cityclerk.lacity.org/lacitycl...number=09-1455

    Granted circumstances not identical, but shows absolute negligence by RAC in particular.

    Quote Quoting chase8
    View Post
    Is THIS the CPRA you are referring to? Should my request be to the State or to the County Sheriff's Department?
    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    Well, that is for the CPRA as it relates to the state DOT, but it is the same set of laws.

    The agency involved should have a policy regarding public records and how to ask for them. Call or go there first and ask how you would get them. Should they deny you, then seek a remedy by pursuing a CPRA request. I do not see why they could deny the dispatch logs.
    I will follow up on CPRA request with Sheriff's Department.

    Quote Quoting chase8
    View Post
    ..."they discovered..."? Would/ could this be info supplied by 3rd party tip to police? I would think if police themselves discovered before-hand it would have been by sight (assuming no 3rd party), which would have resulted in immediate arrest.
    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    Yes, the info could be third hand.

    If the SVS hit said that the suspect was Chase8 and someone else said that Chase8 was in the area, they could more than likely articulate probable cause to make that arrest, absolutely.
    Since a copy of the rental agreement + additional info would have been provided to reporting PD, I agree I was likely listed as the suspect in the Palm Springs PD report.

    Given that I was staying at a hotel 120 miles away until that fateful night, 3rd party info to Sheriff's seems the only logical conclusion to me at this time.

    Quote Quoting chase8
    View Post
    The CHP trooper in his car was a few feet away and I could easily hear him on the radio and observed him typing on the computer. What I don't understand - if PD stolen vehicle report made 3 weeks prior, why I was not arrested/ car taken from me that night? It makes no sense to me.

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    CHP is notorious for not running people or cars for wants (i.e. active warrants). It could have slipped through the cracks.
    No arrest warrant ever issued for me. Good point on 'slipping through the cracks', although I would think CA rental car + PA licensed driver involved in alleged injury accident would = running me &/or the car.


    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    Normally, I would suggest the delay was because the DA was seeking a warrant and the agency would not enter the vehicle as stolen without the warrant for your arrest (this is what SVS generally requires in the case of most embezzled vehicles ... rentals do not hold to the same process, usually. It most likely was because someone wanted to get more info before they would enter it.
    I wasn't aware that the DA could/would be involved that early in process, but if rental car cases treated differently... maybe that's the reason no warrant was ever issued..? Is "The Agency" you mention the PD to which the report was made?

    What type of "more info" is typically sought? They had rental agreement (R/A), claim to have sent certified letters to my home address in PA listed on R/A and claimed they attempted phone contact with no success. (However, I have detailed phone records showing calls to/ from RAC during this time period).

    I found THIS stolen rental car reporting requirement info from San Diego PD. Is the info contained therein similar to your department's requirements?

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    Or, the initial report was not the final date of report ... or, the agency has a grace period they give before entering it ... or, ... who knows?
    Good point on grace period; however, PD claims to have but one initial report; no follow-up. They would not tell me the date info entered into system, nor will they provide me with a copy of the report citing "ongoing investigation"; says it is Sheriff's Dept/ DA responsibility to close matters.


    Quote Quoting chase8
    View Post
    I don't mean to sound argumentative, but the FBI NCIC Use Constraints states -
    ...To a Member of Congress or staff acting upon the member's behalf whom the member or staff requests the information on behalf of and at the request of the individual who is the subject of the record;...
    Is there an area I missed?
    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    It's not as easy as it sounds ... and, they aren't going to provide it to you (or should not). Granted, Congress-critters can often act outside the law with impunity, but I suspect the FBI would get its panties in a bunch if some Congressman obtained and then turned over any NCIC info to you - an unauthorized party.

    There are ways for the information to be obtained, but there are also a myriad of laws covering misuse and unlawful dissemination. If the Congressman or staffer were able to get it, that does not mean he or she can pass it along to you. No statute seems to permit that, and from all the training I have had, it would be strictly prohibited under state and federal law.
    It did sound too good to be true; too easy. I'll let the attorney decide this one.

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    A stolen car is a felony and the suspects in a stolen car are generally presumed armed and dangerous.

    When we stop one on the street, we point lots of guns at them and call them out very carefully before proning them out or forcing them to kneel uncomfortably while they get cuffed, searched, and then thrown into a patrol car while the car is cleared. It is not something we take lightly.
    I completely understand the need for you to take all necessary precautions for your safety.

    What floored me is that I just walked out of my step-sister's home with my step-brother-in-law (Dennis) shoulder-to-shoulder. I would have expected both of us to be forced to the ground... not just me. As I mentioned in prior post, while I was being cuffed, a senor-type officer (white shirt, gold badge as I recall), walked up and said "Dennis, lets go inside...". Just the two of them walked up the stairs and entered the home.

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    I am surprised they had so many people looking for you, but, I suppose if they have nothing else going on ...
    I was way beyond surprised given the sheer number of police and Special Enforcement Team officers present, not to mention seeing cars "light up" and speed in for the kill.

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    I suppose that info might be in any police report. It could be they got tipped off ... it could be some deputy got lucky ... or, maybe someone called in a suspicious vehicle. In the end, it really does not matter how they found you, they did.
    Agree - in the end they found the car/ me. The info should (better) be in the police reports.

    Quote Quoting chase8
    View Post
    If I may ask, is this in anyway a scenario that could have occurred without prior knowledge that I would be at the home at a specified time? I ask because my step-sister and husband called me repeatedly that day to make sure I knew to come by exactly at the specified time.
    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    Could be they had been in touch with the cops. If the cops knew your name, chances are they were waiting for you to come to roost somewhere.
    That is my theory. I had just returned to Palm Springs area. Originally in late April, I came to Southern CA to testify in my late step-dad's probate case, which did not please Vickie and Dennis (I subsequently learned).

    The cops may have known my name, but I have never been affiliated with the address where arrest took place. My late step-dad bought the house < 2 years prior to his death. He owned 4 or 5 homes in the same development.

    Another very odd thing - I was booked under my late-step-dad's local CA address (a few blocks from arrest scene), even though the Sheriffs had my wallet, including my PA drivers license. My step-dad died 17 months prior to the arrest and I had never lived at his home or used the address at any time, nor any other California address. No member of my immediate family, including my mother (resident of NJ) ever used the local CA address, either.

    I have only been a resident of the State of NJ and the Commonwealth of PA during my lifetime.... never California.


    Quote Quoting chase8
    View Post
    Also, if I may - do you normally contact RAC company for verification? If no arrest warrant as in this case, and RAC says "recover the car", is it then within your discretion whether to arrest or not (assuming no warrant and no admission)?
    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    That confirmation comes in the form of the report and the employee signing the CHP-180 (the stolen vehicle report). The officer is not likely to call the VP, the Pres., and the CFO for confirmation. With the report and probable cause to believe the vehicle is stolen, the entry is made into SVS.
    I would not expect an office to call the CEO, CFO, COO, VP, etc... for confirmation. But I would expect a law enforcement officer to keep his word. I was told no less than 1 dozen times that a call to the rental car company would be made.

    There are dozens of precedents for confirmation as well found in US Supreme Court cases along with CA appellate cases dating back to the 1960s, containing testimony by an officer who either requested dispatch to make the call or more recently with cell phones, did so himself. I myself received many such calls from police when I was employed by the former #1 car rental company.

    Rental cars owned by an international corporation such as in my case are assigned (owned) by "owning cities" and communication between corporate offices and corp HQ leaves much to be desired, especially when one owning city rents a car owned by another owning city. I now know that although I rented the car in Palm Springs (PSP), the actual owning city = San Francisco.

    Quote Quoting chase8
    View Post
    He replied "you mean that you and Vickie. . . that you and Vickie are family?? (then very loudly) -- FAMILY..???" (just to note: I said 'step-sister' - did not say 'Vickie'). He then turned toward the street; his arms flapped down to his side. The police involved in vehicle search looked over and seemed frozen in place; appeared stunned. The search then ceased immediately.
    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    Cops know people ... I know people by name all over my town, so if it would not be unusual for an officer who has worked in an area long enough to know someone. It could be that the info they had and what they observed at the scene and heard from you sounded peculiar ... no way for me to know.
    I am aware that cops know people. I only replied that this was the home of my step-sister of 25 years.

    When I spoke to the deputy a few weeks ago, he admitted to me that he kept an eye on Vickie and Dennis, given his history with them. Problem is I am unable to locate any arrest information on either one at the home in question, except one FTA, which I researched later and was astonished to find -

    Code:
    1  PC 459  F  Burglary  	      01/19/2007  
    2  PC 476  F  Ficticious Bill/Note  01/19/2007   
    3  PC 459  F  Burglary  	      01/19/2007
    4  PC 476  F  Ficticious Bill/Note  01/19/2007 
    5  PC 459  F  Burglary              01/19/2007 
    6  PC 476  F  Ficticious Bill/Note  01/19/2007
    A prior DUI + those charges resulted in a total of 5 days in jail and Dennis was to complete 272 hours community service, pay a $4,200 fine, but never did.

    He violated the terms of agreement numerous times and was finally ordered to begin community service on 23 June 2009 (17 days before my arrest - and the approximate date calls to be began to have me stop by their home) - which he did not.

    http://jcgriff2.com/Avis-Budget/Denn...ns_record1.htm

    I nor my family knew anything about Dennis' January 2007 arrest until months after my arrest.

    Dennis disappeared the day after my arrest and was incommunicado for 91 days.

    Just recently, I learned that I was not the only person arrested at Dennis & Vickie's home, including one the night before my arrest. Yet Dennis and Vickie have never been charged.

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    If family made knowing and intentional false statements to the police, you can act on that in civil court. Not sure what they could have said that was untrue, but, if they characterized you as an armed bank robber and there was no foundation to that claim, then you might have some sort of claim against them ... though, you would likely have been arrested anyway as a result of your being in possession of a stolen car.
    That is why I asked definition of "possession" - the keys were in the car; car parked on public street. I don't know if I was in legal possession of the car at the time that I walked out the front door.

    Based on obtained recorded information, Dennis and Vickie told authorities that I was an East Coast "family member" running drugs and guns. When I arrived that fateful night on their invitation, Vickie's step-sister showed within minutes and the two of them left the home. Dennis said in a shaky voice "John... you know I really did enjoy our conversations....". I asked for his current cell number. I then went to the front door, but he did not move. I asked "aren't you coming?" He replied "out there?" I said my phone was in the car. Reluctantly, he walked out with me. Then all hell broke lose.

    It makes sense to me now why the officers were in full force, swarmed the car immediately asking "where are the needles, where is the sh**, etc..." very loudly and threatening, not mentioning anything about a stolen car, just shouting "if I get stuck, you're in serious sh**".

    An incredible, probably unbelievable story, I know. My own criminal attorney didn't believe me until I provided him with the items in this thread + much more.

    I don't understand to this day how I could be arrested for -
    10851(A) F VC TK VEH W/O OWNER'S CNSNT
    496(D) F PC REC KNOWN STOLEN PROP

    ... yet no charges ever filed. Either the car was stolen or it was not; I was in possession of stolen property or I was not. This would seem like a no-brainer. What more is there to investigate? All the RAC had to do was send a rep to court to give testimony, assuming the facts are as they say. But they did not. I find the statement by one of the arresting officers telling me that "charges will never be filed in this case..." to be ludicrous and completely without merit.

    I want the PD and Sheriff police reports and will hopefully get them.

    I cannot thank you enough for your time and effort in answering my questions. I greatly appreciate it.

    Kind Regards. . .

    John

  10. #10
    Join Date
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    8,006

    Default Re: Obtain Police Arrest/ Incident Reports - No Charges Filed - Rental Car

    Could you edit out Dennis' criminal record link? That is not information this board needs to discuss your issue. You seem to think your step-sister is the problem so there is no need to smear her husband by discussing/disclosing his arrest record. Not really any reason to discuss hers either but at least you didn't post a direct link to it.

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