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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
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    5

    Default Failure to Obey Sign on a Bike, Can You Be Cited for VC 21461(A)

    My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: California

    I was recently biking home on a sidewalk that is closed off by buildings (meaning there was no street around). I came up to a cross street with a crosswalk and stop signs for cars going both ways. After stopping and looking both ways i biked across the crosswalk back onto the closed sidewalk when an officer in the intersection requested me to turn around. He pointed out a sign on the opposite side of the crosswalk that said 'Walk Bike in Crosswalk' and cited me for a 21461(a). The sign itself was a small yellow square sign and i cannot find it anywhere in the Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices. The sign also had been tagged and stickered and was hard to read. additionally the sign was on the right crosswalk and i was on the left. the trees separating the two crosswalks blocked my view of the sign itself. When asking the officer why the sign was at this intersection and not the other 5 all the students pass on the way and he could not give me a clear answer. I have read other posts that say a 21461(a) cannot be given as a standalone violation. Does that apply to a bike as well? does this violation even apply to a bike going from closed sidewalk across a crosswalk and onto another closed sidewalk? if the sign is covered and i cant see it how can i get a ticket for it? thanks for your help. I have pictures and videos of the intersection itself and the sign if it will help in answering my questions. Thanks

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    California
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    20,594

    Default Re: Can You Get a 21461 (A) Failure to Obey Sign on a Bike

    Yes, the violation can apply to a cyclist (see CVC 21200).

    No, he does not have to cite others for the violation against you to be valid.

    Yes, if the sign is sufficiently obstructed and/or not posted properly you might have a defense against the violation.

    Was the sign square or diamond-shaped? In other words, did it have a corner pointed up, or was it flat on the top?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
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    5

    Default Re: Can You Get a 21461 (A) Failure to Obey Sign on a Bike

    the sign was a rectangle with rounded corners. The dimensions are about 1ft tall by 1.5 ft wide and sits at about eye level on the opposite crosswalk from the one i was crossing. The sign has a yellow background with black lettering and a black trim. it says "walk bike in crosswalk". Do you know how much the ticket will cost? why i am so passionate about contesting it is the officers sit there daily and watch students bike through as their main concern is the drivers that run the stop sign. The officers asked myself and 2 other guys to come over to their car and let 5 or 6 girls bike through. I have asked officers posted at that intersection before what the law was because the sign contradicts what they are allowing thousands of students do daily. In my opinion it would be more effective to ask students to walk their bikes in mass rather then picking a few guys out of a crowd to write tickets to. all that teaches me as a citizen is to bike faster and ignore the police when they ask me to turn around and come up to their car. That is not a message i would think police officers want to convey to citizens. And again because the sign was posted at eye level and on the opposite crosswalk my view was obstructed by the trees dividing the two crosswalks. I looked through the 850 page manual that details all the street signs and was unable to find any state approved sign that says "walk bikes in crosswalk". why are bikers allowed to bike through all the other crosswalks in the commute but not this one? i saw this ticket as a way for the officers to reach their quota (if a quota exists). it was also odd they were only ticket men and letting the beautiful women through. Once again the sign itself is a small rectangle and matches no other road sign i have seen before. Thanks for your prompt response and help. I have no problem paying the fine its minimal but i just paid a $300 ticket for going 75 in the carpool lane on the freeway with all the other cars which was quite ridiculous. I just want to understand what the laws are as i believe they are just ticketing students because they believe we will just pay the fine and not investigate the legality of their ticket. I looked at VC 21200 and it states any bikes on a highway. i went from sidewalk to crosswalk back to sidewalk and was not in a bike lane or anything.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    LA LA Land
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    9,170

    Default Re: Can You Get a 21461 (A) Failure to Obey Sign on a Bike

    Quote Quoting mkohl
    View Post
    the sign was a rectangle with rounded corners. The dimensions are about 1ft tall by 1.5 ft wide and sits at about eye level on the opposite crosswalk from the one i was crossing. The sign has a yellow background with black lettering and a black trim. it says "walk bike in crosswalk". Do you know how much the ticket will cost?
    ^This^ is the ONLY part that is relevant to your defense in this case.

    Now, if the sign is a yellow background (with black lettering) then it is an "warning sign" and NOT a "regulatory sign". Since 21461(a) applies to obeying "a sign or signal defined as regulatory in the federal Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices, or a Department of Transportation approved supplement to that manual", then you are not in violation of failing to obey a regulatory sign.

    What you'll have to do is Google the "federal Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices" (or better yet, the "California supplement" to that manual) look up the definition of "regulatory", make a copy of those pages, include them along with a picture of the actual sign at that particular crosswalk (and one that shows some identifying features of that intersection/portion of the roadway (like a street name sign))... and use that in your defense.

    All the other talk about 6 girls crossing and not getting cited, 75mph in the HOV lane... etc, will NOT, under any circumstances work in your defense. So skip it...

    Good luck!

    Edited To Add: Search for the "2010 CA MUTCD", and start your research by looking at "Table 2A-4(CA)" on "Page 2A-23"...

  5. #5
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    Sep 2005
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    California
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    Default Re: Can You Get a 21461 (A) Failure to Obey Sign on a Bike

    Quote Quoting mkohl
    View Post
    why are bikers allowed to bike through all the other crosswalks in the commute but not this one?
    Don't know. Ask the city planning department. I imagine it had to do with some other issues - perhaps cyclists tagging pedestrians.

    i saw this ticket as a way for the officers to reach their quota (if a quota exists).
    Quotas are blatantly unlawful in CA.

    I looked at VC 21200 and it states any bikes on a highway. i went from sidewalk to crosswalk back to sidewalk and was not in a bike lane or anything.
    Unless this was private property, it was a highway.

    360. "Highway" is a way or place of whatever nature, publicly
    maintained and open to the use of the public for purposes of
    vehicular travel. Highway includes street.


    Review That Guy's excellent advice on the matter. Look to see if the sign comports to the requirements ... which is why I asked about the sign. If the sign does not comply with the regulations, you may be able to beat this with a a trial by written declaration.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    616

    Default Re: Can You Get a 21461 (A) Failure to Obey Sign on a Bike

    If the sign is not listed as an 'allowable sign' in the Cal MUTCD or ammendments, 21461(a) should not apply.

    Interesting that police say you can "beat" the citation, when in fact it is a not a valid cite... kinda a mindset. When defendants win they 'beat it'...when officers win justice prevails.

    A

    PS Post a picure of the sign and I'll search....

  7. #7
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    Sep 2005
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    California
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    Default Re: Can You Get a 21461 (A) Failure to Obey Sign on a Bike

    Quote Quoting adam_
    View Post
    Interesting that police say you can "beat" the citation, when in fact it is a not a valid cite... kinda a mindset. When defendants win they 'beat it'...when officers win justice prevails.
    Oh, brother ... Beat: to overcome in a contest; defeat.

    I guess I will avoid common vernacular in the future so as not to obfuscate my meaning.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    5

    Default Re: Failure to Obey Sign on a Bike, Can You Be Cited for VC 21461(A)

    here is the sign at is seen right in front of the crosswalk. i was however on the parallel crosswalk on the other side of the street and could not see the sign from my side as there was a DPS booth and many trees in the way. Additionally as you can see the sign itself has been pretty well trashed. let me know what you think of the sign because the ticket amount is $250 and thats insane for doing something myself and 50,000 other students do daily. I found the sign description and it is listed as a warning sign. can they write tickets for signs intended to warn you? or what does that all mean?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    California
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    20,594

    Default Re: Failure to Obey Sign on a Bike, Can You Be Cited for VC 21461(A)

    It does not look like it complies with the MUTCD ... it certainly does not appear to conform to any sign I've seen

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
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    616

    Default Re: Failure to Obey Sign on a Bike, Can You Be Cited for VC 21461(A)

    cannot see an image nor a link to an image... firefox ssue?

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