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  1. #1
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    Default Seizure of Blind Man's Cane After Fight

    My question involves search and seizure law in the State of: NY

    This is a theoretical question - I'm researching for a book I'm writing.

    The scenario is this: A blind man with a cane takes on a group of gang members to save a woman and young girl. This is a fiction novel, and the blind man has supernatural powers that allow him to beat them all down. No one dies or is too seriously injured. Lots of bruises and possibly a few broken bones.

    The question: Could a police officer legitimately seize his cane as evidence, and would this be likely to occur? If the cane was seized, how long could it be held, and how would the man go about securing its return? I should mention that the press will quickly get involved, and I cannot imagine that the police would be looked upon kindly after confiscating a blind man's cane, after he saved a woman and small child.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Seizure of Blind Man's Cane After Fight

    Quote Quoting Ironwil
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    Could a police officer legitimately seize his cane as evidence,
    Yes. In the context given, beyond it's state of being a cane, it was used as a weapon in a case where subjects received injuries. Police would tyupically want to seize ANY weapon, in case the DA determined that they wanted to bring a charge. If the DA feels it was clearly self defense, no charges. If the DA feels that the use of force exceeded the level needed to avert the threat, then charges are possible.


    and would this be likely to occur?
    Probably not - but it's dependent on circumstances we don't have.

    takes on a group of gang members to save a woman and young girl.
    Save them from WHAT, exactly. From being harassed? From being physically harmed? Had there been actual threats? How did the blind subject determine that harm was imminent? Who struck the first blow? There's a LOT more that needs to be known before a reasonable opinion on whether the use and level of force was justifiable. Having multiple assailants, as opposed to a single assailant, can have the effect of a DA (or jury, if it gets that far) allowing for a much greater use of force because (a) the possibility of injury to the defender or those being defended is increased exponentialy, and (b) only using the minimal force to stop the immediate threat, which is the crux of all self defense cases, ceases to be prudent with multiple assailants - in other words, if you don't disable some of them proactively, which may take MORE than the force they are exerting, then it's only a matter of time before the numbers game ends to the detrement of the defender.


    If the cane was seized, how long could it be held,
    Until any criminal charges were settled.

    and how would the man go about securing its return?
    The victim would ask the DA to return any personal property, or ask the victim advocate to handle the matter.

    I should mention that the press will quickly get involved, and I cannot imagine that the police would be looked upon kindly after confiscating a blind man's cane, after he saved a woman and small child.
    Unless it was some priceless artifact, I fail to see why anyone would even raise an eyebrow. Such canes can be easily found for under $20 and replaced on the way home - most major drug stores sell the standard folding models, and medical supply stores and online retailers provide more advanced options (police aren't going to just walk away from the guy and leave him standing on the street corner, caneless). The issue isn't whether he used to cane to save a woman and child, the LEGAL issue is that the cane was being used as a weapon. Just as if someone wearing dentures bit someone and inflicted injury. Similarly, the state could seize the dentures as part of any criminal case (to show that the dentures in question were the ones that inflicted the wounds). Canes and dentures are certainly important aids, but people absolutely can live without them for the time that it would take to replace them or could choose to live without them until the end of the case.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Seizure of Blind Man's Cane After Fight

    Quote Quoting aardvarc
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    Yes. In the context given, beyond it's state of being a cane, it was used as a weapon in a case where subjects received injuries. Police would tyupically want to seize ANY weapon, in case the DA determined that they wanted to bring a charge. If the DA feels it was clearly self defense, no charges. If the DA feels that the use of force exceeded the level needed to avert the threat, then charges are possible.




    Probably not - but it's dependent on circumstances we don't have.



    Save them from WHAT, exactly. From being harassed? From being physically harmed? Had there been actual threats? How did the blind subject determine that harm was imminent? Who struck the first blow? There's a LOT more that needs to be known before a reasonable opinion on whether the use and level of force was justifiable. Having multiple assailants, as opposed to a single assailant, can have the effect of a DA (or jury, if it gets that far) allowing for a much greater use of force because (a) the possibility of injury to the defender or those being defended is increased exponentialy, and (b) only using the minimal force to stop the immediate threat, which is the crux of all self defense cases, ceases to be prudent with multiple assailants - in other words, if you don't disable some of them proactively, which may take MORE than the force they are exerting, then it's only a matter of time before the numbers game ends to the detrement of the defender.




    Until any criminal charges were settled.



    The victim would ask the DA to return any personal property, or ask the victim advocate to handle the matter.



    Unless it was some priceless artifact, I fail to see why anyone would even raise an eyebrow. Such canes can be easily found for under $20 and replaced on the way home - most major drug stores sell the standard folding models, and medical supply stores and online retailers provide more advanced options (police aren't going to just walk away from the guy and leave him standing on the street corner, caneless). The issue isn't whether he used to cane to save a woman and child, the LEGAL issue is that the cane was being used as a weapon. Just as if someone wearing dentures bit someone and inflicted injury. Similarly, the state could seize the dentures as part of any criminal case (to show that the dentures in question were the ones that inflicted the wounds). Canes and dentures are certainly important aids, but people absolutely can live without them for the time that it would take to replace them or could choose to live without them until the end of the case.
    Thanks, those were good questions. In this case, the woman was fleeing from the gang members, carrying a young girl that had been beaten. The lead gang member struck the woman with a tire iron before the blind man arrived to intervene. The fact that he's blind and would have a difficult time in most circumstances identifying danger will complicate things, I'm sure. The cane is actually a priceless artifact, and is central to the story, so it must be returned to the main character, and soon. I'm trying to determine how much and what resistance to use when the police attempt to seize the cane. My thought is that, even if it were legal, most police wouldn't attempt a seizure of the cane. The evidence of who did what will be fairly evident, and the woman carrying the child will actually be the sister of a police detective, which won't hurt. I'm hoping to realistically use the pressure of bad press (reporters quickly show up on the scene) to get the overzealous officer in question to back down. This will set up a long-term antagonism between the main character and this particular officer, which is also important to the story.

    Let's further stipulate that the cane wasn't used as a weapon during the fight, and both the police detective's sister and young girl back up this statement.

    Basically, the police can't take the cane for more than a few hours without seriously adverse consequences, so I'm hoping to find a realistic manner in which the blind man can refuse to relinquish it at the scene.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Seizure of Blind Man's Cane After Fight

    You are writing a story so you can certainly create circumstances to fit the scenario. It is called "artistic license."

    In reality, the cane would almost certainly be seized as evidence if there was any serious injury to the people he struck. And unless you write in a very sympathetic DA who works a deal with the law enforcement admin. to release the cane before it is needed at trial, the cane could be held for many months - perhaps, years if any of the crooks are suing the blind man.

    I suppose you can fudge it to say that the bad guys were for some reason encouraged to plead guilty and the case was disposed of in a couple months.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Seizure of Blind Man's Cane After Fight

    Quote Quoting Ironwil
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    Thanks, those were good questions. In this case, the woman was fleeing from the gang members, carrying a young girl that had been beaten. The lead gang member struck the woman with a tire iron before the blind man arrived to intervene.
    It would be beneficial if the blind character were somehow aware of the tire iron strike - that's an agg battery at least and attempted murder at worst, and opens the door for heightened use of force to stop the commission of a forceible felony.

    The fact that he's blind and would have a difficult time in most circumstances identifying danger will complicate things, I'm sure.
    Yep. He'll need to be able to convice police/DA that his intervention was warranted. Being blind, it would seem he'd have to be able to verbalize what he heard (screams, strikes), felt (maybe she ran into him while trying to escape), smelled (perfume, blood), or otherwise experienced that led him to believe that the victims were in danger from a group of thugs. For example, even if he used supernatural powers to gleen his information, he could SAY that he heard the sound of a metallic object hit the wall/ground and this led him to know that the subject was armed, etc. He smelled the blood of the victim and knew she was injured.

    The cane is actually a priceless artifact, and is central to the story, so it must be returned to the main character, and soon.
    Consider the possibility of the blind hero using a proxy, telling police he used a broom handle or other similar sized object that he just happens across as police are arriving on scene.

    I'm trying to determine how much and what resistance to use when the police attempt to seize the cane. My thought is that, even if it were legal, most police wouldn't attempt a seizure of the cane.
    Actually, most probably would, given subjects with injuries.

    The evidence of who did what will be fairly evident,
    Not the job of police to make that call at the scene. That'll be up to the DA later. Police collect and record, and send the case up the chain.

    and the woman carrying the child will actually be the sister of a police detective, which won't hurt.
    But won't be relevent to the personal property of a third party.

    I'm hoping to realistically use the pressure of bad press (reporters quickly show up on the scene) to get the overzealous officer in question to back down.
    This is why scenes get secured and persons who interfere with police investigations get arrested. Portraying police as puppets to the pressure of the press is truely a dis-service. But it's your story.

    This will set up a long-term antagonism between the main character and this particular officer, which is also important to the story. Let's further stipulate that the cane wasn't used as a weapon during the fight, and both the police detective's sister and young girl back up this statement. Basically, the police can't take the cane for more than a few hours without seriously adverse consequences, so I'm hoping to find a realistic manner in which the blind man can refuse to relinquish it at the scene.
    Ok - so the cane was NOT actually used, and the blind character and the victims all agree on this, but for some reason the cop wants to seize the cane anyway. That'll make more sense, yes. If the officer feels that the cane WAS used (or just wants to be a pimple on the blind character's butt for some reason), then the officer can treat the cane as material evidence in a criminal case and seize it. All a refusal will accomplish is that the blind here gets arrested for obstruction and it gets seized anyway. But that may work well for your scenario. Let's say the cop is being a jackass, and jumps to the conclusion that a single blind man couldn't put a smack down on the thugs without using the cane as a weapon and goes to seize it. Blind character protests, vociferously, until he is arrested (allowing himself to be arrested without further incident, due to press coverage he doesn't want to reveal his powers - see the press can work for OR against). Once arrested, he sees the judge first thing in the morning (assuming this incident happened in the evening, you're looking at a window of 8 to 10 hours, or even shorter if it happened in the wee hours). At arraignment, the charges against the subject are read, the prosecutor feels that the cop has made a fool of him by bringing the case at all, and the judge has not only some bitter commentary for the officer, but also praise for the courage of the blind character. Add drama and put the mother at the arraignment too...she's waiting to thank him for saving her and her daughter...insert romantic music here...etc....If that doesn't create some serious animosity between your character and the officer, I don't know what would!

    You might also play on the dynamic that the almost-victim woman is "law enforcement family" who ended up not being saved by the officer who was responsible for that area, but by a blind guy. That opens doors for a lot of negative interaction from fellow officers which would create a LOT of pressure on the cop and give him heightened negatively towards the blind guy.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Seizure of Blind Man's Cane After Fight

    Thanks for the input. I'll adjust things so I don't stretch the realm of believability too much.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Seizure of Blind Man's Cane After Fight

    The lead gang member struck the woman with a tire iron before the blind man arrived to intervene
    .how would he know she was struck and then, how would he know it was a tire iron? and don't make the argument "she told him". We all know a woman doesn't know what a tire iron is.


    The fact that he's blind and would have a difficult time in most circumstances identifying danger will complicate things, I'm sure.
    The cane is actually a priceless artifact, and is central to the story, so it must be returned to the main character, and soon.
    evidence is generally not subject to release because it is a priceless artifact. It would be considered to be safe in the police evidence room. In fact, it would obviously be safer (as far as the police know) in the evidence room than in the hand of a blind man.

    I'm trying to determine how much and what resistance to use when the police attempt to seize the cane.
    unless he wants to be arrested, very little and about the only legit claim he would have to not having it seized would be because it was a necessary tool for him to walk home. So, they give him a stick and all is well.

    My thought is that, even if it were legal, most police wouldn't attempt a seizure of the cane
    .if it was used as a weapon, it is no longer a "cane". It has become a weapon and subject to seizure.

    The evidence of who did what will be fairly evident, and the woman carrying the child will actually be the sister of a police detective, which won't hurt. I'm hoping to realistically use the pressure of bad press (reporters quickly show up on the scene) to get the overzealous officer in question to back down. This will set up a long-term antagonism between the main character and this particular officer, which is also important to the story.
    an offer of a ride home where the guy can get another of his canes (a blind man surely does not limit himself to just one cane) would take care of the public outcry. How can they be upset if the police needed to take the weapon as evidence.

    Let's further stipulate that the cane wasn't used as a weapon during the fight, and both the police detective's sister and young girl back up this statement.
    then they likely won't take it. Why would they?

    Basically, the police can't take the cane for more than a few hours without seriously adverse consequences, so I'm hoping to find a realistic manner in which the blind man can refuse to relinquish it at the scene.
    unless it was not involved in the fight, he wouldn't have a valid argument. It would be poor actions on the part of the police to not seize evidence of a crime and a weapon used in the commission of a crime.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Seizure of Blind Man's Cane After Fight

    We all know a woman doesn't know what a tire iron is.

    HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!! OMG I spit coffee all over my monitor!!!!

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