Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 17
  1. #1

    Question Washington School Zone Speeding Ticket

    My question involves a speeding ticket from the State of: Washington

    After you guys helped me with my ticket (thread here , if you have a ticket from WSP, read it...you can beat your ticket) my wife decided to prove that anything I can do she can do better. So she goes and gets a more expensive school zone ticket.

    The SMD cert seems to be in order as does the officer's sworn statement. The only thing that we can see is that the officer's sworn statement says that he was operating in the 400 block of Eatton Blvd. The school zone isn't in any part of the school zone, as shown by the map below.

    Do you guys see anything else? Also, the city charged her $5 for the discovery materials. Is this normal? Allowed?




  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    1,383

    Default Re: Anything You Can Do, I Can Do Better

    Where does the officer say that he performed the tests to determine the units accuracy? Mmmmm, I smell a hearsay argument...

  3. #3

    Default Re: Anything You Can Do, I Can Do Better

    The school zone isn't in any part of the school zone,
    I'm such an idiot...meant to say "the school zone isn't in any part of the 400 block". I figure if the officer doesn't show up, this map may be enough.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    107

    Default Re: Anything You Can Do, I Can Do Better

    The map will probably be enough but just to add something. The affidavit does not state the lights were checked and working before the stop. If the officer isn't at the trial to state they were that should help... Also looking at the sign on google maps and maybe I'm missing something here but it just says "School, Speed Speed Limit, (lights), when flashing". It does not state the speed limit of the school zone. While we might have known it's 20mph because we cannot claim ignorance of the law it does not seam to conform with Manual for Uniform Traffic Control Devices part 7. http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/pdfs/2009/part7.pdf weather that helps or not I don't know but I would think it should state the limit. Maybe the sign is different and I am just not seeing it on Google...

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    3,577

    Default Re: Anything You Can Do, I Can Do Better

    Quote Quoting Gravity
    View Post
    I'm such an idiot...meant to say "the school zone isn't in any part of the 400 block". I figure if the officer doesn't show up, this map may be enough.
    I don't know how you figure that. In my mind, the "400 block" is an entire block extending from 4th to 5th. Since the "end school zone" sign is between 4th and 5th, how can you argue that "the school zone isn't in any part of the 400 block"? I think your map CLEARLY shows that part of the school zone is, indeed, within the "400 block". Personally, I think you're stuck with Brendan's "hearsay" argument (which is fairly weak).

    Another, even weaker argument might be that the SMD certification does NOT indicate how the LIDAR unit was tested (unlike the RADAR testing, which shows what tests were performed). The example in IRLJ 6.6 states:

    Quote Quoting IRLJ 6.6 (b)
    This agency maintains a testing and certification program. This program requires: (State the program in detail.)
    Unlike the RADAR portion, the LIDAR portion of the certification fails to state the testing program. Again, it's VERY weak.

    Quote Quoting jjb
    View Post
    The map will probably be enough but just to add something. The affidavit does not state the lights were checked and working before the stop. If the officer isn't at the trial to state they were that should help... Also looking at the sign on google maps and maybe I'm missing something here but it just says "School, Speed Speed Limit, (lights), when flashing". It does not state the speed limit of the school zone. While we might have known it's 20mph because we cannot claim ignorance of the law it does not seam to conform with Manual for Uniform Traffic Control Devices part 7. http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/pdfs/2009/part7.pdf weather that helps or not I don't know but I would think it should state the limit. Maybe the sign is different and I am just not seeing it on Google...
    The officer's affidavit CLEARLY states, "This is a posted 20 MPH School Zone Speed limit, so posted with flashing lights...."

    IMHO, that's good enough to establish the school zone, the speed limit, and that the signage was proper. However, as JJB pointed out, the officer does NOT state that the lights WERE flashing at the time of the stop. Again, it's a week argument, depending on how you read, "so posted with flashing lights." Does that mean there is a sign on which there are lights CAPABLE of flashing or that they were, indeed, flashing at the time? This argument also ties in with your wife's statement that she didn't realize it was a school zone.

    Good luck,
    Barry

    edit: It also occurs to me that the officer does NOT state his own location -- simply that he obtained the speed reading at a distance of 284 feet. Since the school zone does, indeed, end within the 400 block -- at which point the speed limit becomes 40 MPH -- it's possible your wife MIGHT have been outside the actual school zone, accelerating up to the 40 speed limit. Without an exact location on the officer, it's not possible to know.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Anything You Can Do, I Can Do Better

    Quote Quoting blewis
    View Post
    I don't know how you figure that. In my mind, the "400 block" is an entire block extending from 4th to 5th. Since the "end school zone" sign is between 4th and 5th, how can you argue that "the school zone isn't in any part of the 400 block"? I think your map CLEARLY shows that part of the school zone is, indeed, within the "400 block".

    ...Since the school zone does, indeed, end within the 400 block -- at which point the speed limit becomes 40 MPH -- it's possible your wife MIGHT have been outside the actual school zone, accelerating up to the 40 speed limit. Without an exact location on the officer, it's not possible to know.
    Barry--There aren't any street numbers, so I'm not seeing where "between 4th and 5th" is. Barring anything that indicates where the 500 block ends and the 400 block begins, the only thing I have to go on is the address of the propery directly in front of the "end school zone" sign. That property is the church, and the address is 500 SW Eaton Blvd. So yes, this is all up to interpretation, but I think (hope) the officer's statement about where he was is both specific and ambiguous enough to inject enough doubt in.

    @jjb: The signage conforms...flashing lights and speed limit clearly marked.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    3,577

    Default Re: Anything You Can Do, I Can Do Better

    "What we've got here is failure to communicate." (from Cool Hand Luke). Actually, you can see (to the north of SW Eaton, where they intersect with Scotton Way) where 4th and 5th are located in this view from Google Maps. Extending those streets down to Eaton, they line up -- remarkably -- with your "400 Block" and "500 Block" labels of your own map. In fact, that's how I thought you placed them.

    But, that's not what I was talking about. Your own labels put the school zone ending WITHIN the "400 block". Remember, the "400 block" is NOT a spot -- it's a full block long! On your map, it extends from your "400 Block" label to your "500 Block" label. In between those labels is the "End School Zone" sign -- making the location of the sign within the 400 Block.

    Barry

  8. #8

    Default Re: Anything You Can Do, I Can Do Better

    Remember, the "400 block" is NOT a spot -- it's a full block long! On your map, it extends from your "400 Block" label to your "500 Block" label
    Hmmm, I see what your saying. However, the 500 block also isn't a spot and is a full block long. I took a look at the map you linked to and did some crude straight-edge work with a piece of paper. It looked to me that the border between the 400 & 500 blocks is right between the storage units for the apartments and the church building. This puts the end school zone sign firmly - and by firmly I mean a measly 30' - in the 500 block. Good luck with this, right? lol.

    In addition to this close margin, the range in the officer's sworn statement says the range he targeted the vehicle at was 283'. So, unless the end school zone sign is at least 283' in the 400 block, he couldn't have gotten the reading in a school zone.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Anything You Can Do, I Can Do Better

    In addition to this close margin, the range in the officer's sworn statement says the range he targeted the vehicle at was 283'. So, unless the end school zone sign is at least 283' in the 400 block, he couldn't have gotten the reading in a school zone.
    Wait, that doesn't make any sense, does it? But it still stands, the officer says that he "observed the defendents vehicle in the 400 block". This means he'd have to observe, make a speed estimate, and obtain a speed reading while the defendent is in the 400 block. Fine. I think the school zone arguably ends within the 500 block but even if it extends a bit into the 400 block, definitely not enough to perform those three actions.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Anything You Can Do, I Can Do Better

    Update: She had her court date today. The judge was intrigued by her argument that per the officer's sworn statement she couldn't have been in a school zone. (the maps in the original post are gone, I can re-upload them if desired)

    I have two questions:

    1. The judge said that "he'd take it under advisement", but didn't issue a judgment. What's going on here? Is she in some kind of limbo?
    2. She was charged $5 for the discovery material. Is this normal and legal?

    1. Sponsored Links
       

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Speeding Tickets: Speeding Ticket in a School Zone: Washington
    By feet in forum Moving Violations, Parking and Traffic Tickets
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 09-04-2008, 07:12 PM
  2. Speeding Tickets: Speeding Ticket In School Zone In Washington
    By rudwls1014 in forum Moving Violations, Parking and Traffic Tickets
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 02-25-2008, 03:24 PM
  3. Speeding Tickets: School Zone Speeding Ticket in Washington, with No School
    By aquanaut38 in forum Moving Violations, Parking and Traffic Tickets
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 11-24-2007, 09:59 AM
  4. Speeding Tickets: Speeding Ticket in a School Zone, in Washington
    By lesie in forum Moving Violations, Parking and Traffic Tickets
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 05-30-2007, 08:38 AM
  5. Speeding Tickets: Speeding Ticket in a School Zone in Washington
    By Dreams in forum Moving Violations, Parking and Traffic Tickets
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 10-11-2006, 08:11 AM
 
 
Sponsored Links

Legal Help, Information and Resources