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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
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    Default Bullying and the Right to Protect Yourself

    My question involves education law in the State of: PA
    Last month my son came home with a bloody mouth. The school had called two minutes before he arrived and let me know he was injured at school and that they didn't have time to investigate because the buses had to leave. (it was a friday afternoon)
    My son told me that boys at school were harrassing him and threatening to beat him up and that they approached him and were threatening him and challenging him and saying "we can beat you up" and "take a swing at me" (that sort of thing over and over) My son took a swing and the boys grabbed him in a headlock and took him to the ground. Then they hit him repeatedly and another boy leaned over him and threatened to stab him with a pencil. The bus arrived and they let him up. When he got on the bus and sat in his assigned seat, the main offender came and sat next to him and punched him in the face. He then pushed him off his seat and started swinging his backpack at him to get him away.
    He was sent home bloody without being checked by a nurse and without the school doing anything!
    I ended up going to police to make sure the school would do something since they had sent my son home on the bus with the offenders and he would have to ride back with them as well. The police officer explained that they do not get involved in these matters and then called the school.
    The school told him that they were reviewing the videos and MY SON was the one harrassing the other child and that he started everything! So, the police officer comes out and lays into my son and told him "you are a liar, you are the instigator, and you are the aggressor!" He said this was all my son's fault and that because of him we would have to go to court and I would have to pay a fine and everything. He really let my son have it!
    On the way to school, my son just cried and cried about him being harrassed being his fault.
    We went to the school and waited hours and the officer repeated everything about it all being my son's fault but that he hadn't yet seen the videos.
    The principal then called me when I got home and told me again that this was all because of my son and he was the harrasser. She sympathized with the other kid and said he beat my son up because he was so frustrated with my son. She said there were no videos because they had mislabled them and couldn't find them. (confused yet?)
    So, on Sunday, I get called into the police station to view the non-existent videos and guess what? You see 3 boys repeatedly approaching my son who is clearly seen minding his business. You see them come at him and surround him and then you see my son swinging and kicking to get them away and then the beating occurs.
    The police officer says this is 50% my son's fault because he swung first. It didn't matter if they were threatening him repeatedly and threatening to be him up. It didn't matter that my son was surrounded by 3 bigger boys challenging him. He was scared out of his mind!
    So, here's the kicker. We were given a choice by the police officer that either our son get's charged with assault or we have to agree to a youth community panel where he will get community service only after admitting to what he did wrong. We had to choose the community panel.
    But am I wrong to think that my boy had the right to protect himself when he was being told that they were going to beat him up and had him surrounded? Did I make the right choice because I couldn't imagine a court actually charging my son after seeing this video which clearly shows all the facts.
    I know this was lengthy but I am heartbroken at the fact that my son is being taught again that it is all his fault and they want him to go up in front of community members and tell them that he was at least half at fault!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
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    19,901

    Default Re: Bullying and the Right to Protect Yourself

    Baited as he was, taking a swing at the bullies is not "protecting himself." The proper response was to ignore the baiting and to report the threats to the school.

  3. #3
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    Sep 2005
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    California
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    Default Re: Bullying and the Right to Protect Yourself

    How old is your son?

    And, yes, legally it would appear that your son committed assault and/or battery by swinging first. Self defense only applies if the force was necessary in order to protect yourself and is an affirmative defense (in other words, he can raise it at trial after he is charged).

    Even if no crime can be applied, schools tend to see any physical altercation as the equal responsibility of all parties. Right or wrong, they tend to see it that way because of liability ... and it is easier than trying to com to an objective conclusion based upon all the evidence. The schools do not want to be in the business of being detective agencies, so they tend to hold all parties accountable.

    And it is very possible that your son did do something that contributed to his predicament. It is rare that bullies pick on the truly and entirely innocent. Does it happen? Sure. But, typically, the picked on party has done something (even if stupid) to add to the situation. When bullied, the correct response is to speak with the authorities at the school.

    If your son is having issues coping with all of this, counseling might be in order. Maybe even transferring to another school if it is really bad for him. There is no magic wand that will fix any of this.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
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    12

    Default Re: Bullying and the Right to Protect Yourself

    Yes, I understand that. As a parent, it's so hard to see three kids repeatedly harrassing your child. There was video of them harrassing him in the hallway first, then you see them surrounding him outside and were threatening to beat him up. He should not have swung. I agree. He swung, but he didn't actually hit anyone. The three boys then were all involved in fighting my son. He also didn't do anything on the bus to get hit in the face. He did say that the entire time, the other two were egging on the main boy telling him to tackle him and hit him in the face. Nothing was done to the other two. He turned 11 the day before. In the video, you see a teacher standing not 15 ft away and he's looking in their direction while the boys have him on the ground and he's doing nothing. My son said he just wanted to get them away and was really scared.
    A little bit of history for you. My son has been a victim of bullying in the past. He is a great little "adult" but around other kids, just doesn't know how to relate to other kids his age. He's not aggressive at all, he is just an easy target because of his social clumsiness. He went to a religious school before we placed him in public and it seems to play a little into him being outcast. Most public school children aren't exactly understanding of the naive, nice, quirky, smart kid.
    I don't know if I'm making the right choice about having him go in front of the youth community panel or not. And I don't know how to deal with the school over this. They lied to me about the video, they lied to me about the entire incident, and they lied to the police officer which led to my son taking a verbal beatdown. The police officer did say that the other main boy did lie about it all being my son harrassing him until he pulled out the video. He said that's when the boy admitted to harrassing my son with his friends. The kicker to all of this is that they were good friends last year.
    Thanks again for your feedback, I certainly appreciate it.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Bullying and the Right to Protect Yourself

    two things i'm curious about

    #1 when you say he swung but didn't hit anyone, do you mean he just didn't make MUCH of a contact or he did not hit them at ALL?

    #2 do you know what punishment the bullies who hit him ended up getting

    p.s. this IS kinda heart breaking, but your son really should not have swung if his intent was to hit the boy and nobody had swung at him yet. fists are never the proper response to words.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
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    NC
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    17

    Default Re: Bullying and the Right to Protect Yourself

    I've been there. It happened to me nearly every other day in junior high while in class, in the halls and on the bus. Nothing was ever done about it. When I fought back, I was suspended along with the aggressor for defending myself. In class, there were also issues with specific people verbally assaulting me and threatening me. Not once did a teacher ever speak up or say anything until I spoke up and defended myself verbally.

    When the situation is similar to mine, you are effected psychologically severely. I remember that by 8th grade, there were many times that I sat in class afraid to move a finger to scratch an inch, thinking someone would notice that I existed and I would instigate in the least an argument. I walked the halls for three years waiting for the next attack.

    I have thankfully forgotten most of what happened to me, but to list specific events:
    1. Off the bus I walked walked inside of the school. Before getting 30 feet I was suddenly pushed from the back and fell.
    2. In the bathroom I was randomly punched in the stomach immediately after a a "bully" that constantly harassed me walked in.
    3. Repeat offenders randomly saying things such as "Hey there's Chris, let's beat him up".
    4. After opening my locker in gym, two kids ran by and slammed into me knocking me down and then walked away.
    5. Standing next to my locker, two kids walk up and randomly shove me against the wall and start threatening me and demanding that I respond.

    When you're constantly assaulted verbally and physically for absolutely no reason, it effects you in ways most people can't imagine. To this day I have had issues that I can only trace back to those days. Up until that period in my life, I was a normal kid and talked like everyone else. By the end of junior high I was very quiet and to this day I have trouble talking in social settings and I'm afraid of public speech and labeled the quiet guy. I'm only now starting to get over it and it has been extremely hard to get there and I've fought hard every day for 14 years to build my self esteem back up to a normal point.

    I don't know the legalities of this, but if it was me and I knew what I know now and had access to today's technology. I would carry a small recording device with me and hit play to record the conversation. Possibly even a small camera. If even just to prove to the principal what was happening. Probably not advisable, but personally I wouldn't care, because proving it for me back then would have been worth the consequences even if it got me arrested.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
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    3,835

    Default Re: Bullying and the Right to Protect Yourself

    So, on Sunday, I get called into the police station to view the non-existent videos and guess what? You see 3 boys repeatedly approaching my son who is clearly seen minding his business. You see them come at him and surround him and then you see my son swinging and kicking to get them away and then the beating occurs.
    IF he felt threatened and was afraid he would be beaten, 3 against 1, and they approcahed him, this is not merely baiting, but is a legally perceived threat of possible serious bodily injury.

    Throwing the 1st punch to attempt to minimize the damage to him, would be, IMO, what is known as Preventive/Preemptive self defense.

    In other words, if he can gain the upper strength hand by attacking first, it could somewhat help him from getting beat into a coma.

    The intent of any Legislature in passing self defense laws is not to punish a boy who when surrounded by 3 others who are threatening him, to stand by and let them throw the first punch then he can defend himself.

    Scenario: I am surrounded by 3 men that are theatening to beat the H*** out of me. If I can catch one off guard and kick him in the groin or other sensitive areas, it may help the odds for me.

    I will be darned, if I can gain the upper hand to keep from getting beat into a coma, and attack first, the law will not deter me to do so, even if it is against me. They can charge me, at least I am alive to stand trial.

    The police officer says this is 50% my son's fault because he swung first.
    He has no idea what he is talking about, he is not only not a lawyer, but he does not assign proportional fault to a crime, that is up to the court and a fair trial.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Bullying and the Right to Protect Yourself

    I'm going with BOR on this one. Shouldn't be hard to convince a judge that an 11 year old with no previous history of violence was acting in preventive self defense against someone who DOES have a history of violence...against that same boy.

  9. #9
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    Sep 2005
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    Default Re: Bullying and the Right to Protect Yourself

    It sounds like the school's position is that this goes beyond the "fight video" - that junior was picking on another child on a prior occasion (or occasions), the other child got a couple of his friends and collectively confronted junior and that, at some point in that encounter, junior took a swing at one of the other boys and a fight ensued. From a "zero tolerance" standpoint it's not at all unusual for a school to take the position that anybody who throws a punch, whether or not they're the aggressor, should be disciplined for fighting. There's no "stand your ground" rule in elementary school, and we have no indication that before escalating an exchange of words to an exchange of blows junior could not have left the scene or sought help from an adult.

    When you're the one who escalates a confrontation from words to blows, it's much more difficult to prove self-defense. If somebody believes he can do so, he has the right to trial. I understand why under facts like these a person might choose community service as a "sure thing" over the possibility of a juvenile disposition, but I don't see any reason to assume that there would have been an acquittal at trial. My position may change if I saw the tape, and (if found) the other tapes showing events leading up to this incident.

    My childhood experiences with bullies do not suggest that throwing the first blow at a group of bullies is going to allow you to escape a beating. Quite the opposite.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
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    CT & IL
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    5,273

    Default Re: Bullying and the Right to Protect Yourself

    The threat of charging him is likely an MT threat. If there has been a history of these kids hitting your child then it is reasonable for him to assume that they were going to attack him again (but the OP would know more about this than anyone) then the self defense aspect would be appropriate. A person does not have to be injured before defending himself. Its an affirmative defense. You should never allow your kid to be interrogated by the cops for any reason. The video does not have audio I assume so its impossible to say what happened. I would demand a trial, simple as that. No jury will convict IMO.

    Quote Quoting kshannon
    View Post
    My question involves education law in the State of: PA
    Last month my son came home with a bloody mouth. The school had called two minutes before he arrived and let me know he was injured at school and that they didn't have time to investigate because the buses had to leave. (it was a friday afternoon)
    My son told me that boys at school were harrassing him and threatening to beat him up and that they approached him and were threatening him and challenging him and saying "we can beat you up" and "take a swing at me" (that sort of thing over and over) My son took a swing and the boys grabbed him in a headlock and took him to the ground. Then they hit him repeatedly and another boy leaned over him and threatened to stab him with a pencil. The bus arrived and they let him up. When he got on the bus and sat in his assigned seat, the main offender came and sat next to him and punched him in the face. He then pushed him off his seat and started swinging his backpack at him to get him away.
    He was sent home bloody without being checked by a nurse and without the school doing anything!
    I ended up going to police to make sure the school would do something since they had sent my son home on the bus with the offenders and he would have to ride back with them as well. The police officer explained that they do not get involved in these matters and then called the school.
    The school told him that they were reviewing the videos and MY SON was the one harrassing the other child and that he started everything! So, the police officer comes out and lays into my son and told him "you are a liar, you are the instigator, and you are the aggressor!" He said this was all my son's fault and that because of him we would have to go to court and I would have to pay a fine and everything. He really let my son have it!
    On the way to school, my son just cried and cried about him being harrassed being his fault.
    We went to the school and waited hours and the officer repeated everything about it all being my son's fault but that he hadn't yet seen the videos.
    The principal then called me when I got home and told me again that this was all because of my son and he was the harrasser. She sympathized with the other kid and said he beat my son up because he was so frustrated with my son. She said there were no videos because they had mislabled them and couldn't find them. (confused yet?)
    So, on Sunday, I get called into the police station to view the non-existent videos and guess what? You see 3 boys repeatedly approaching my son who is clearly seen minding his business. You see them come at him and surround him and then you see my son swinging and kicking to get them away and then the beating occurs.
    The police officer says this is 50% my son's fault because he swung first. It didn't matter if they were threatening him repeatedly and threatening to be him up. It didn't matter that my son was surrounded by 3 bigger boys challenging him. He was scared out of his mind!
    So, here's the kicker. We were given a choice by the police officer that either our son get's charged with assault or we have to agree to a youth community panel where he will get community service only after admitting to what he did wrong. We had to choose the community panel.
    But am I wrong to think that my boy had the right to protect himself when he was being told that they were going to beat him up and had him surrounded? Did I make the right choice because I couldn't imagine a court actually charging my son after seeing this video which clearly shows all the facts.
    I know this was lengthy but I am heartbroken at the fact that my son is being taught again that it is all his fault and they want him to go up in front of community members and tell them that he was at least half at fault!
    Ask the cop what he does when someone threatens to beat him up ... wait for it to begin? HA! I would say the kid was trying to effect a citizens arrest .. then it is no longer a criminal matter at all, just a civil matter. Can a minor arrest someone??

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