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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Public University - Public Forum / Property Right Violation

    If violating the law or other reasonable regulation (loitering, trespassing, etc.) then he can be compelled to leave. But, if his actions were entirely lawful except for looking to the east (or whatever direction he might have been looking), then ordering him to leave would almost certainly have been unlawful. If the school wants to keep the activity private, they can do it in a remote location.

    It would not be difficult to articulate safety issues involved with loitering in a parking garage, but I would NOT want to go to court and try to support an arrest for looking east if looking in any other direction, and staying put, would have been lawful. Would you?

  2. #22

    Default Re: Public University - Public Forum / Property Right Violation

    Hey Everyone,

    Thanks for all the replies!

    I was looking through all of the postings and wanted to clarify some points that were brought up.

    The parking garage is open to anyone who wants to park in it given they possess a vehicle decal, but after certain hours, it's free for anyone to park.

    There were no parking attendants, the people who approached me were individuals that worked for the University from one of the nearby buildings as event managers.

    Yes, because I am a student, I agreed to follow the rules that the University has, but I am not aware of any specific rule pertaining the practice field stuff, since the official University rules are part of Florida's Administrative Code and are available there along with other things.

    The event going on in the practice field is visible from the roof of the garage as well as from the ground because the fence is able to be seen through. About the event, it is a closed practice that is only available to the people associated with the football team, as others have said.

    Yes, I do realize that just because a property is publicly owned, that it is not necessarily a public forum. But my reasoning would be, who decides, or how do individuals know what would be considered "public forum" on a public University? There are undisputed spots on the campus where individuals who are not associated with the campus in any way come to protest, shout, yell, preach, etc between classes in a very common area of the campus. I'm pretty certain that areas like this would not continue if it were not considered a "public forum."

    The nature of the campus is that it is integrated into the city traffic and roadways that its almost impossible to avoid traversing through the campus to get from point A to B depending on the route.

    There is a roadway that is adjacent to the campus, and also adjacent to the practice field, which has a sidewalk along the road way. I am able to see clearly into the practice field from this sidewalk and roadway while driving, but not sure about the status of the sidewalk being part of the University or part of the state road.

    I can see the arguments for loitering and such from being in the parking garage when not using it for its intended purpose, but, still, as others have said, I was told that it was okay for me to stand on the other side of the parking garage without any problem. So it really was the issue of the position I was standing and where my eyes were looking.

    I can't see the same justification applying if I were on the University property but on the sidewalk, as there could be no argument of safety, loitering in the garage, etc. Could I really be trespassing, even though I am not breaking any laws by just being on the sidewalk because they don't like people looking at the practice field?

    I know this sounds silly, but although I had no interest in watching the practice as a primary reason for being there, I almost want to go to the sidewalk that runs parallel to the University and state road, next time and see if I am approached again and "test" to see what would happen, given that I would not be under a time restriction (since I had a meeting and wanted to kill some time before)....

    Thanks again for all the insight to this! I've always been fascinated by the law, especially towards unique situations such as a public University.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
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    Default Re: Public University - Public Forum / Property Right Violation

    The parking garage is open to anyone who wants to park in it given they possess a vehicle decal, but after certain hours, it's free for anyone to park.
    doesn't change anything

    There were no parking attendants, the people who approached me were individuals that worked for the University from one of the nearby buildings as event managers.
    generally employees of a university are going to be empowered to act on behalf of the school, at least to some extent.

    Yes, because I am a student, I agreed to follow the rules that the University has, but I am not aware of any specific rule pertaining the practice field stuff, since the official University rules are part of Florida's Administrative Code and are available there along with other things.
    You might read the rules you agreed to abide. They may be more restrictive.

    The event going on in the practice field is visible from the roof of the garage as well as from the ground because the fence is able to be seen through. About the event, it is a closed practice that is only available to the people associated with the football team, as others have said.
    even though that is what they were complaining about, that really has no bearing on the situation.

    Yes, I do realize that just because a property is publicly owned, that it is not necessarily a public forum. But my reasoning would be, who decides, or how do individuals know what would be considered "public forum" on a public University? There are undisputed spots on the campus where individuals who are not associated with the campus in any way come to protest, shout, yell, preach, etc between classes in a very common area of the campus. I'm pretty certain that areas like this would not continue if it were not considered a "public forum."
    No. Regardless what you want to call it, a state university is no more public than any other public building. Anything that you do that disrupts the school can be considered to be illegal.

    The nature of the campus is that it is integrated into the city traffic and roadways that its almost impossible to avoid traversing through the campus to get from point A to B depending on the route.
    If you are on a public highway, then different rules will apply but I'm betting if you set in the middle of a public roadway, you will be expected to move your car too.

    There is a roadway that is adjacent to the campus, and also adjacent to the practice field, which has a sidewalk along the road way. I am able to see clearly into the practice field from this sidewalk and roadway while driving, but not sure about the status of the sidewalk being part of the University or part of the state road.
    as I said; what you were watching has nothing to do with the situation. It is simply a matter of do you have the right to be in that garage if ordered to leave and are you able to just sit in your car, especially once ordered to leave.

    I can see the arguments for loitering and such from being in the parking garage when not using it for its intended purpose, but, still, as others have said, I was told that it was okay for me to stand on the other side of the parking garage without any problem. So it really was the issue of the position I was standing and where my eyes were looking.
    It really becomes irrelevant. If what you were doing was considered to be loitering, they can tell you to move, If they want to allow loitering in some specific area of the garage and not others, it is their right because ultimately, they can prohibit loitering anywhere in the garage.

    I can't see the same justification applying if I were on the University property but on the sidewalk, as there could be no argument of safety, loitering in the garage, etc. Could I really be trespassing, even though I am not breaking any laws by just being on the sidewalk because they don't like people looking at the practice field?
    that would depend on whose sidewalk it is, what the loitering laws require to be applicable, and of course, specifically what you were doing. Again, the fact you were watching the team does not mean anything.

    I know this sounds silly, but although I had no interest in watching the practice as a primary reason for being there, I almost want to go to the sidewalk that runs parallel to the University and state road, next time and see if I am approached again and "test" to see what would happen, given that I would not be under a time restriction (since I had a meeting and wanted to kill some time before)..
    .why not? Isn't that all part of the college experience; testing the limits. If there is a bench, it would be even better as that would effectively be an invitation to stop and set for a spell.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Public University - Public Forum / Property Right Violation

    The key could well be whether or not the activity is otherwise permitted save for his looking in the direction of the field. If the ONLY reason for ordering someone off the facility was because he was looking in the direction of the practice, I as an officer would require the requesting employee sign a private person's arrest ... provided the elements of some actual crime (such as trespassing or loitering) can be articulated.

  5. #25
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    Aug 2007
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    Default Re: Public University - Public Forum / Property Right Violation

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    I as an officer would require the requesting employee sign a private person's arrest ... provided the elements of some actual crime (such as trespassing or loitering) can be articulated.
    Although this is FL, good point for CA Carl. I just wonder how many
    "private citizens" will effect a citizens arrest, as they have NO immunity if constitutionally wrong.

    JK, I said if I were a University police officer I would have called my superior. The person who called his was just another employee, not a U police officer and not versed in law.

    If I were simply a parking attendant and called my superior and they said the same thing, I don't put too much legal stock in that??

    If I were the Supervisor on scene I personally would have called a University Officer for assistance, not try to be an expert on the FL or Federal constitution by demanding he leave?

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Public University - Public Forum / Property Right Violation

    Quote Quoting BOR
    View Post
    Although this is FL, good point for CA Carl. I just wonder how many
    "private citizens" will effect a citizens arrest, as they have NO immunity if constitutionally wrong.
    I imagine private person's arrests are similar in FL as they are in CA.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Public University - Public Forum / Property Right Violation

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
    View Post
    I imagine private person's arrests are similar in FL as they are in CA.
    From my research the law is unclear, but possible.

    In Ohio here a private person can NOT arrest for a Misdemeanor, just a felony.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Public University - Public Forum / Property Right Violation

    JK, I said if I were a University police officer I would have called my superior. The person who called his was just another employee, not a U police officer and not versed in law.
    I see that when I go back and read your statement. I apparently glossed over the statement about the office and disconnected it from the following statement.

    If I were simply a parking attendant and called my superior and they said the same thing, I don't put too much legal stock in that??

    If I were the Supervisor on scene I personally would have called a University Officer for assistance, not try to be an expert on the FL or Federal constitution by demanding he leave?
    I have found more often than not, if the guy was directed, by anybody they deem a superior, damn the law and I'm going to follow directions.

    but, the first 3 people simply demanded OP leave and did not attempt to effect a detention. The third university person was calling somebody. Maybe he was calling the campus cops.

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