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  1. #1
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    Apr 2009
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    Default Re: 22350 VC - Excessive Speed, No Radar

    Quote Quoting samsonian
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    my intention is not to fight it as I know I will most likely lose. I just am banking off the fact that I have a 50% chance of getting my ticket dismissed if the cop does not show up.
    Actually, you get two chances. One chance is that the officer won't file the TBD papers. To my own discredit, this has happened with 5 out of the six of my own tickets I've beaten so far. In contrast, only three of my TBDs came back with a guilty decision.

    is this where I go to the court in question and pay the bail amount and plead not guilty for a court date? How would I get a copy of the officer's statement?
    Read TG's reply and my numerous replies to other threads dealing with the same.

    I am just trying to get a reduced fine and traffic school if the cop shows up. Is this feasible given I play the sympathy card with the judge and ask for traffic school so I can learn more about the rules of driving? If I plead guilty, will the judge be likely to dismiss my option to attend traffic school?
    Depends on the judge, really. For what it's worth, I've seen many judges proactively ask eligible defendants if they would like to attend traffic school but it depends on the court and the judge. If you have the time, just go down to the court where your case is assigned to and watch a few traffic court sessions to see how how different judges act.

    One last note. In the OP, I stated that the officer marked my car down as a 2 door (it was a 4 door sedan) and as gray (it was blue slate). The officer is trying to use his training as a "radar". Therefore his testimony is accepted.
    But if he can't get the # of doors correct while standing 1 ft away from the car (at a standstill) then how accurate could his estimate be at 50ft and moving? It was dark and cloudy out so I would think that that's another hit on his crediblity? It's alot harder to judge distance when it's dark. Visual landmarks are harder to see, depth perception is lessened. Could I make a case off this?
    Officers have specific training in visual estimation of the speed of a moving vehicle. You won't get far with that line of defense, but if things get that far, feel free to bring it up just to fluster the officer a little bit. Colors can be easy to misjudge in the dark, but let him get a little ready in front of all the cops watching from the back and look like an idiot that can't count the number of the doors on the car.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: 22350 VC - Excessive Speed, No Radar

    Quote Quoting HonkingAntelope
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    Officers have specific training in visual estimation of the speed of a moving vehicle. You won't get far with that line of defense, but if things get that far, feel free to bring it up just to fluster the officer a little bit. Colors can be easy to misjudge in the dark, but let him get a little ready in front of all the cops watching from the back and look like an idiot that can't count the number of the doors on the car.
    How much of their visual speed estimate testing is done in the dark at 10PM at night?

  3. #3
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    Default Re: 22350 VC - Excessive Speed, No Radar

    Quote Quoting adam_
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    How much of their visual speed estimate testing is done in the dark at 10PM at night?
    Not sure how relevant that is... Keep in mind that at 10pm at night, vehicles (speeding or not) must have their headlights on which makes them fairly simple to track and visually estimate their speed.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: 22350 VC - Excessive Speed, No Radar

    Quote Quoting That Guy
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    Not sure how relevant that is... Keep in mind that at 10pm at night, vehicles (speeding or not) must have their headlights on which makes them fairly simple to track and visually estimate their speed.
    "fairly simple"?

    Any shred of data to support your statement that visually estimating headlight speeds in total darkness is 'fairly simple'?

    If I was interested, I bet I could find publications on this issue. But I'm not the one that got the ticket.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: 22350 VC - Excessive Speed, No Radar

    Quote Quoting adam_
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    Any shred of data to support your statement that visually estimating headlight speeds in total darkness is 'fairly simple'?

    If I was interested, I bet I could find publications on this issue. But I'm not the one that got the ticket.
    Your suggestion implies that "visual estimates" which would have occurred at 10pm, or there about, are "questionable"... Can you post a case law citation, a code section/statute (not just any "publication") supporting that claim???

    If you think you can, find it, post it, and advise the OP to use it in court and hopefully he/she will come back and report how well it worked out for him/her. Until then, my opinion as to the validity of such an argument will remain the same:
    The legal requirement AND the burden that the officer must meet is that he/she is P.O.S.T certified. A certification that includes, but is not limited to, the ability to visually estimate a vehicle's speed to within a +/-5mph margin of error.

    Whether that particular aspect of training/testing/certification is conducted at 10pm, at 3am or at high noon, is hardly a point of contention UNLESS such certification includes a restriction stating that it is ONLY valid and applicable during daylight hours. As far as I know, it DOESN'T!!!

  6. #6
    Join Date
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    Default Re: 22350 VC - Excessive Speed, No Radar

    Quote Quoting adam_
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    "fairly simple"?

    Any shred of data to support your statement that visually estimating headlight speeds in total darkness is 'fairly simple'?

    If I was interested, I bet I could find publications on this issue. But I'm not the one that got the ticket.

    Can I say it's fairly simple? Is that credible enough? Or are the millions of previously issued night time radar citations, which require visual estimation good enough?

  7. #7

    Default Re: 22350 VC - Excessive Speed, No Radar

    I haven't had the opportunity, never had a "pacing" ticket but thought that an interesting twist would be to put the citing officer's "estimates" to test in the court room. Ask them how far it is from where where they are standing to the entrance behind them.

    Since, as we all know, speed=distance/time you could use that to show what % their estimate is off and cast reasonable doubt on their ability to visually estimate speed (assuming they are don't nail the distance).

  8. #8
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    Default Re: 22350 VC - Excessive Speed, No Radar

    Quote Quoting SMBI
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    I haven't had the opportunity, never had a "pacing" ticket but thought that an interesting twist would be to put the citing officer's "estimates" to test in the court room. Ask them how far it is from where where they are standing to the entrance behind them.

    Since, as we all know, speed=distance/time you could use that to show what % their estimate is off and cast reasonable doubt on their ability to visually estimate speed (assuming they are don't nail the distance).
    And speaking of ridiculous, you should follow that up by asking the judge if he'll order the bailiff to run that same distance, while you time him with a stop watch then ask the officer to estimate the bailiff's speed...

    Do the distance/time calculation and "BAM"......... NOT GUILTY!!!


  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
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    7

    Default Re: 22350 VC - Excessive Speed, No Radar

    Hello again everyone,

    Just got the courtesy notice in the mail, $340 before traffic school
    My court date is late november.

    Given my circumstances and how this is my first ticket, which I have little to no defense for and will likely lose if fought,

    1. Should I submit a TBWD (think of some sort of defense) in hopes that the officer will not respond for a dismissal?

    2. And if the officer does respond and I am found guilty, should I then request for a trial de novo (hoping officer doesnt show). If he does, plead guilty at the court and ask for a reduction (sympathy card for student in debt) and ask for traffic school (so I can learn more about my driving mistakes)?

    3. Also, should I ask for an court date extension and then submit my TBWD (can you even do this?), or should I submit and then ask for an extension?

    I know most of this relies on sheer luck, but the odds are more in my favor than straight up paying the ticket. These are my guiding factors for going to court/TBWD:

    Pros:
    several chances to get ticket dismissed (no show at court and no response- TBWD)
    chance for reduction (sympathy plea at court)
    chance for traffic school (sympathy plea at court)

    cons:
    judge gets mad that I waited for trial de novo to plead guilty
    lose traffic school option (judge's discretion)
    first and only point on record (when I could have attended traffic school in the beginning instead of going to court)



    thank you in advance for your time.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
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    616

    Default Re: 22350 VC - Excessive Speed, No Radar

    I'd give it a shot. You can always say "Your honor I just wasn't going that fast" and given that it will be a visual estimate, maybe a 'pace', your plea is believable. (Not saying the judge will believe you, but at least he won't get pissed off.) (Of course most defendants say, when asked by the judge "so how fast WERE you going",... "Maybe 45, but not 55"... "Guilty")

    What do other folks say about THAT court and the ability to get school after traffic court??? THAT is your missing data point.

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