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  1. #1
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    Default Re: Going Straight from Left Turn Lane

    Quote Quoting That Guy
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    If the legislative intent would have been to ONLY prohibit such movement from "within" the intersection, it would have been much easier for them and much clearer for us, had they used word "within" the intersection instead of "at" the intersection. Don't you think?
    Good question.

    What is YOUR interpretation of "at"? Is this interpretation 'settled law'?

    Quote Quoting That Guy
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    Furthermore, 22101 clearly applies to the presence of the vehicle is "a clearly marked traffic lane provided for the approach to the turning movement" and any movement that is not in compliance with the directions of or is contrary to that which is allowed by traffic control devices thereon is unlawful. That lane, and the markings thereon, starts at the entry point to the lane, and ends at the limit line for the intersection. Even if you were to argue that the lane starts at its entry point, and ends on the other side of the intersection, the same VC would still prohibit any movement other than that allowed by the traffic control devices from the ENTIRE LANE, not only that which is made from "within" the intersection.
    But failure to comply with the markings on the lane is a 21461 (failure to obey a regulatory sign)...once the driver leaves the lane (albiet possibly 'illegally leaving the lane') his obligations to obey his 'old lane' end, no?

    ("if you say so" is not a real response, BTW. )

    Quote Quoting That Guy
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    Of course, you are free to argue otherwise!
    Really? Thanks.

    Quote Quoting That Guy
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    And nowhere does it say "within" the intersection.

    Again, the code references a "clearly marked traffic lane is provided for the approach to the turning movement" where the markings (any or all of the following: the straight white line, the left turn arrow painted on the pavement, the Left Turn Arrow posted on the sign, the Left Turn Arrow on the traffic light) conform to the definition of an "official traffic control device" (see below) and any turning movement not in compliance with the direction of those devices is unlawful.
    Again, once he leaves the lane, he is no longer bound by the 'rules' of the old lane. Or could he have turned left from the new lane he moved into? He'd be following the rules of the lane he originally entered (but disobeying his new lane)

    Quote Quoting That Guy
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    Also, please note that it also states "the approach to the turning movement"... Are you saying that the "approach to the turning movement" can be made from "within" the intersection?
    Not sure what you are saying or asking.

    The turning movement can only be made IN the intersection. (By definition an intersection is one roadway to another.)



    Quote Quoting That Guy
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    For the Xth time (I stopped counting a while back),
    look, you wanna get preachy, go somewhere else. If your objective is to crap all over the OP and have him give up and pay the ticket, you're doing a fine job...

    Quote Quoting That Guy
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    22101 clearly states that if there is a clearly marked lane dedicated for a particular movement, any other movement made from that same lane is unlawful. In other words, and as I sataed in the quote you cited "once you've entered such a lane, you have committed to making the left turn"...
    Well, we disagree. 'committing to make a left turn' is a lay concept, but you've failed to provide a legal definition.
    Quote Quoting That Guy
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    If you say so....
    Well, what do YOU say? Yes or no? Can you change lanes over a solid line?
    Quote Quoting That Guy
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    VC 440. An "official traffic control device" is any sign, signal, marking, or device, consistent with Section 21400, placed or erected by authority of a public body or official having jurisdiction, for the purpose of regulating, warning, or guiding traffic, but does not include islands, curbs, traffic barriers, speed humps, speed bumps, or other roadway design features.


    A "sign" could be a "Left Lane MUST Turn left", but it could simply mean a "left turn arrow" posted either at the near side of the intersection or atop the traffic light on the far end of the intersection.

    A "signal" could be that "Red Light Arrow" (which I can only assume that it was erected at the intersection).
    VC 445. An "official traffic control signal" is any device, whether manually, electrically or mechanically operated, by which traffic is alternately directed to stop and proceed and which is erected by authority of a public body or official having jurisdiction.

    A "marking" could be a "left turn arrow" or the words "Left Turn Only" painted on the pavement within that particular lane.
    Yes?


    Quote Quoting That Guy
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    It is my opinion, that the only lawful way to leave the LEFT TURN LANE is by making a LEFT TURN. So does it really matter where or when he left the lane?
    Well this really is the crux. You cannot leave this lane, ever? So if it has dashed lines, I cannot change lanes once I pass a sign that says 'left turn lane' or I pass over a left turn arror?


    Quote Quoting That Guy
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    Just keep in mind that your strongest defense against any violation of any vehicle code section (or any charge for that matter), is to attempt to convince the court that the elements of the offense with which you were charged did not occur. In this case, stating that you were in a lane that is clearly marked for a left turn, and yet you opted to disregard the direction of an official traffic control device(s) (likely more than one device) that only allows a LEFT TURN, by exiting that lane, (because you think that "'at' the intersection" should mean "'within' the intersection), is in and of itself an admission of guilt (albeit indirectly) to a violation of 22101(d). So much for proving, beyond a reasonable doubt that the element of the offense did not occur.
    Given the stated circumstances, what would you SUGGEST for the OP?

    Not 'what isnt going to work' and not 'how you are guilty'.

    The objective, again I thought, was to assist the OP.

    Quote Quoting That Guy
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    See? This is pretty typical of what happens in traffic court... Defendant goes up before the judge, either directly or indirectly admits to committing the violation, loses the case and then blames it on "lying cops" and/or so called "kangaroo courts".
    I agree. I had one suggestion.

    WHAT IS YOUR SUGGESTION?

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Going Straight from Left Turn Lane

    Quote Quoting adam_
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    Good question.

    What is YOUR interpretation of "at"? Is this interpretation 'settled law'?
    It does not necessarily mean “within” if that's what you're alluding to or getting “at”...
    Quote Quoting adam_
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    But failure to comply with the markings on the lane is a 21461 (failure to obey a regulatory sign)...
    A "marking" is not a "sign" and a "sign" is not a "marking"... While 21461 applies to "failure to obey a regulatory sign or signal", 22101(d) prohibits movements not in compliance with any “official traffic control device” (see VC 440 for a definition)... in this case, a lane marking (which is NOT a “sign”).

    Until the OP comes back with answers to the questions I posed previously...
    Quote Quoting That Guy
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    How was the lane marked? Were there any signs posted at the intersection? And if so, what did the sign look like/what did it say? Were there any arrows painted on the pavement? Was the lane marked by a straight white line separating it from the lane(s) to the right? You also mentioned a traffic light; was it a red left turn arrow that you were initially stopped for?

    Can you post a picture of the intersection that shows those signs/markings? Better yet, you can simply tell us what intersection it was and which direction you were headed and we can look it up on Google Maps...
    … It would be difficult to ascertain whether a citation for 21461 would have been valid. Without those answers, I am going on the assumption that he was inside of what is described in 22101(b) as "a clearly marked traffic lane provided for the approach to the turning movement" which would make a citation for 22101(d) a valid citation.
    Quote Quoting adam_
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    once the driver leaves the lane (albiet possibly 'illegally leaving the lane') his obligations to obey his 'old lane' end, no?
    ... albeit possibly...??? So does that mean that you agree that he left the lane ILLEGALLY???
    Your “illegally leaving the lane" is where the OP gets in deeper trouble here. That is where he admits to committing the violation of 22101(d). Is that really that difficult to understand???
    Quote Quoting adam_
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    Again, once he leaves the lane, he is no longer bound by the 'rules' of the old lane.
    And AGAIN, his leaving the lane, in the manner in which he did, constitutes a violation of 22101(d) which is EXACTLY what he was cited for!
    Quote Quoting adam_
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    Or could he have turned left from the new lane he moved into? He'd be following the rules of the lane he originally entered (but disobeying his new lane)
    And yet that is not what he did, nor is it what he was cited for....
    Quote Quoting adam_
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    Not sure what you are saying or asking.
    It was a "rhetorical" question...
    Definition of RHETORICAL
    1
    a : of, relating to, or concerned with rhetoric
    b : employed for rhetorical effect; especially : asked merely for effect with no answer expected <a rhetorical question>
    Quote Quoting adam_
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    The turning movement can only be made IN the intersection. (By definition an intersection is one roadway to another.)
    The violation occurred BEFORE the OP entered the intersection... (He failed to comply with the direction of a traffic control device (at minimum, a lane marking -”a left turn arrow painted on the pavement”-) while he was in the dedicated left turn lane and his action was not in compliance to the direction shown by a traffic control device which only allowed a left turn from that dedicated left turn lane). So what does the definition of "intersection", where it starts, how it is marked....etc have to do with anything here?
    Quote Quoting adam_
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    look, you wanna get preachy, go somewhere else.
    Fortunately for me, my presence here is not predicated upon your approval or lack there of... If for some reason you don't like my posts simply because you disagreed with my opinion(s), you're free to scroll past them...
    Quote Quoting adam_
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    If your objective is to crap all over the OP and have him give up and pay the ticket
    The OP asked: "does that mean you cannot exit the left turn lane once you are in it?" and I simply answered his question by posting my opinion as to how "I” define the code section... If you think that is “crapping all over the OP" then go ahead and get your panties up in a wad, stomp your feet and cry foul... It doesn't bother me one bit, and it certainly will not change my opinion!
    Quote Quoting adam_
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    you're doing a fine job...
    Thanks!
    Quote Quoting adam_
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    Well, we disagree. 'committing to make a left turn' is a lay concept, but you've failed to provide a legal definition.
    The only failure here is yours... You have provided a single legal definition that is neither relevant nor pertinent to the topic at hand. The definition you offered (“intersection”) is irrelevant to an unlawful action that he allegedly committed PRIOR TO his entering the intersection... It falls short of providing the OP with any plausible defense for a violation that occurred PRIOR to his entering the “intersection”.

    As for what you described as a “lay concept”, your posts have demonstrated that you failed to grasp the legal meaning of and requirements for being in compliance with 22101(d). Shame on me for making an attempt to clarify those for you by using that so called “lay concept”.
    Quote Quoting adam_
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    Well, what do YOU say? Yes or no? Can you change lanes over a solid line?
    Too broad of a question, so it cannot be accurately answered with a "yes" or "no". What color is the line? Where is it painted? What does it delineate?

    I'll narrow down my answer to the topic at hand... Under these circumstances, no, you cannot change lanes over a solid white line after entering a left turn lane marked by one (or several) traffic control device(s) indicating that the only allowed movement from that lane is a LEFT TURN!
    Quote Quoting adam_
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    You cannot leave this lane, ever?
    You can leave it through the intersection by completing the left turn as required and as indicated by one or several traffic control devices!
    Quote Quoting adam_
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    So if it has dashed lines, I cannot change lanes once I pass a sign that says 'left turn lane' or I pass over a left turn arror?
    I'll just take a wild guess and say that the line where the OP crossed back into the other lane was solid, as in "not dashed"... So your hypothetical isn't applicable here.
    Quote Quoting adam_
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    Given the stated circumstances, what would you SUGGEST for the OP?
    I'm not sure if he's eligible for traffic school but if he is, that might be a good route for him to go... Not only will he get this particular citation dismissed, but taking the course might also be a refresher on the rules of the road.

    No pun intended "laojgo".
    Quote Quoting adam_
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    Not 'what isnt going to work' and not 'how you are guilty'.
    This is a public forum and as such, I am free to post what I want, when I want... Until we can all see the word “Moderator” or “Administrator” under your screen name, YOU, don't get to dictate what is posted or by whom!!! Get over yourself...
    Quote Quoting adam_
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    I agree. I had one suggestion.
    Is that the “one suggestion” where you advised him to admit to committing the violation he was cited for as part of his defense? Pat yourself on the back, Adam. The OP owes you a lot of thanks!!!
    Quote Quoting adam_
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    WHAT IS YOUR SUGGESTION?
    Asked and answered.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Going Straight from Left Turn Lane

    OP gone? maybe will post pics of intersection

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