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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    4

    Default Possible Return Fraud

    My question involves criminal law for the state of: nebraksa

    hi, my question involves return fraud (i think) - a term i hadnt even heard of until the other day. However, that seems more like a slang term rather than a legal one. and when i look up the typical examples of return fraud - my situation doesnt seem to fit exactly.... (it could be theft buy decieption, though there seems to be no deciept on my part).

    so i came across a possible loop hole in a store's return policy which ultimately allows me to come out ahead in the end. its as simple as this - i buy something, then return it, and in doing so i earn other credits through a program the store offers which then dont get adjusted downward upon the return.

    im not lying or misrepresenting anything, or changing bar codes or the product in the box or using the product at all. the receipt is the real one. i follow every single rule the stores puts forth when it comes to returns. they even address the credit program in the fine print by saying your balance MAY be adjusted if items are returned. so, like i said, i think its a loop hole because even though they have contemplated this issue via the rules, they have apparently chosen not to make the adjustment (and i do think it is significant that they specifically contemplate the issue in the terms, because then they cant argue its implied).



    so the only issues i think need to be addressed are these -

    1. is it illegal to buy something KNOWING you are already going to return it? in and of itself i cant imagine doing that would be illegal. now, maybe combining this "preconceived plan" with the repetition of the act AND the ability to profit makes it illegal? but i always thought with fraud that there had to be some kind of overt act of misrepresentation and im not misrepresenting anything or going against any of the stores policies (other than some kind of thinly implied understanding in the retail world that if a customer buys something - he is doing so with some attempt or minimal desire to keep it and not return it?)

    2. maybe the question is - is intent ALONE, enough to prove some kind of fraud? because im not otherwise misrepresenting or lying or deceiving any part of the process. so if i enter the store with the intent to profit, and still follow all the rules - does that intent by itself make the entire thing illegal even if im following all of the store policies ?

    3. in and of itself, is it illegal to take advantage of a known loop hole? its not like the store hasnt addressed this issue. its not like they couldnt make the adjustment when returns are made. and since its their business to run, its not MY job to tell them how to do theirs. they have seemingly and knowingly left the loop hole open. why? who knows (though, i actually have an idea why and its sort of the opposite of my issue - where they are using the threat of making this adjustment to customers because it, in turn, benefits the store to do so.....funny how that works). so im trying to make a legal distinction rather than a moral one. corporations knowingly (and seemingly legally) exploit loop holes every day. isnt this the same thing?


    4. is it possible this is more of a contractual issue since it involves the program points which are separate from the retail acts of buying and returning?



    disclaimers -

    1. im trying to discuss the legal ramifications - not the moral ones. so please dont turn this into a morality issue because i already get that (unless you can tie it to a specific law).

    2. im not going to share the name of the store or the exact specifics of the situation.

    thanks

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    9,096

    Default Re: Possible Return Fraud

    You are trying to cheat the company. Knowingly and openly.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    4

    Default Re: Possible Return Fraud

    Quote Quoting cyjeff
    View Post
    You are trying to cheat the company. Knowingly and openly.
    How can i be cheating the company when i am following their own rules. arent they cheating themselves by not buttoning up their own loop holes?

    And does someone have a legal duty to inform them of their loop hole if he/she has the intent of trying to benefit from it? wouldnt that be like companies informing the IRS that they plan on setting up otherwise legal offshore shell companies to reduce their tax liability? now, maybe they provide OTHER reasons for moving offshore (eg, lying or misrepresenting), but even im not doing those things. do you see what i mean ( beyond the, "two wrongs dont make a right" argument im sure you or someone else will make, lol).

    I'm looking for legal input here, you know, on the EXPERT LAW forum - or at least some critical thinking beyond the typical blanket outrage.

    Thanks.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    6,808

    Default Re: Possible Return Fraud

    You got legal advice. If you don't like it, go pay for a lawyer.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    9,096

    Default Re: Possible Return Fraud

    Quote Quoting subtleT
    View Post
    How can i be cheating the company when i am following their own rules. arent they cheating themselves by not buttoning up their own loop holes?

    And does someone have a legal duty to inform them of their loop hole if he/she has the intent of trying to benefit from it? wouldnt that be like companies informing the IRS that they plan on setting up otherwise legal offshore shell companies to reduce their tax liability? now, maybe they provide OTHER reasons for moving offshore (eg, lying or misrepresenting), but even im not doing those things. do you see what i mean ( beyond the, "two wrongs dont make a right" argument im sure you or someone else will make, lol).

    I'm looking for legal input here, you know, on the EXPERT LAW forum - or at least some critical thinking beyond the typical blanket outrage.

    Thanks.
    Trust me... you aren't close to blanket outrage. In fact, I believe you to be dangerously close to not only a charge but an EASY charge....

    You are gaining benefit for purchasing product that you are not purchasing. Better, to get that benefit, you are giving your name, address and telephone number.

    One of several things will happen. One, they will just stop accepting your returns and/or benefits card. Two, you will have all of the points you have accumulated from returns removed from your account. Three, you will be arrested for stealing.

    These things are not mutually exclusive and may ALL happen.

    Have a nice day.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    207

    Default Re: Possible Return Fraud

    Arrested for stealing? Not likely, since nothing described in the OP involves stealing. The store may deduct rewards points for returned items, or even ban him from returning or shopping at the store, but they can't have him arrested for stealing— he didn't.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Toledo, OH
    Posts
    16,307

    Default Re: Possible Return Fraud

    The store may deduct rewards points for returned items, or even ban him from returning or shopping at the store
    These are the most likely options, in addition to a chainwide ban AND being placed on a list of "habitual returners", circulated amongst all stores in the chain AND sometimes given to other retailers in the returner's home community.

    Violating the ban would get our friend picked up for trespassing.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    4

    Default Re: Possible Return Fraud

    Quote Quoting TheArgumentative
    View Post
    Arrested for stealing? Not likely, since nothing described in the OP involves stealing. The store may deduct rewards points for returned items, or even ban him from returning or shopping at the store, but they can't have him arrested for stealing— he didn't.

    right, thats what i think. im returning the same item for the same price with original receipt. what i am benefiting from is a separate program that, granted, is rooted in the act of buying a product, however their system could easily zero out the benefit being afforded me upon returning it (and it does in certain situations - which means they DO know about it and have chosen to take SOME steps to deal with it. why not ALL steps? well, i dont know but i have my ideas, and that seems more like a business decision on their part rather than any kind of criminal issue on mine, ie the loop hole). therefore, the only thing i could see them doing is banning me from their stores.


    and another issue i thought of is "waiver and estoppel" - lol. i dont know if that ONLY applies to insurance, which is where i learned about it, but if i go in there enough times where the employees flat out acknowledge this benefit i am getting AND repeatedly affirm that they are ok with me keeping it - it would seem like that repeated act tells me they, as a company, are ok with this and would therefore be estopped (?) from recouping what they (freely) gave me if they were to sue me in civil court. maybe thats a stretch and maybe that law wouldnt apply here, i dont know.

    maybe when i do it again, i will bring it up myself and ask them directly if i get to keep or lose the benefit. i mean, if i do THAT, then there wouldnt even be an implied deception on my part. better yet, i could also keep a log of every employee that i talked to that said i could keep it. hmmm.

    you know, even if i were only discussing this in the abstract, i would find it equally fascinating. im thinking i should have gone to law school, lol.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Possible Return Fraud

    First of all, I am not a lawyer, but I have dealt with a number of shoplifting, return fraud, etc. cases, or more like people who do these things.

    1. What you are doing may not seem technically illegal right now (you buy something and then return it - there is no law about not wanting to keep an item), but I would stop doing that if I were you. In reality you are cheating the company (and I am not talking about moral aspects here). You may be fine and this method may never backfire, or the store might notice your returning pattern and, believe me, there are so many loopholes in the law that they may charge you for something that you never thought was technically illegal.

    If you returned an item because you bought it for 100$ and a week later it was on 50% sale, and you decided to take advantage of that price difference, I don't think you would be doing anything illegal. You didn't buy an item knowing that you would return it. You just don't feel like paying such a big difference. I can see lots of people doing it, and I don't think that constitutes fraud.

    Quote Quoting PandorasBox
    View Post
    You got legal advice. If you don't like it, go pay for a lawyer.
    That wasn't a constructive comment - the person doesn't need a lawyer.

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