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  1. #1

    Default Movement Through Red-Light Camera Intersection

    I don't (yet) have a ticket but I'm paranoid about these cameras having gotten my first and only ticket of any kind from one of them a few months ago. Now every common situation I run into has me worried about getting another ticket. I live in California where the cameras are popping up everywhere. Here's the latest situation that has me worried:

    I was approaching a camera-controlled signal in a lane where one must turn right. The light was green. The speed limit was 30mph. The car ahead of me stopped during his turn and while the light was green, I'm not sure why but I believe it was because there were vehicles or pedestrians ahead of him on the cross street. I came to a complete stop and waited. The light was still green when I stopped. The light turned yellow, and at this point the other driver finally began to clear the intersection. Faced with a choice between trying to complete my turn or waiting, I waited through the entire yellow, and then waited while the light was red for several seconds while opposing traffic turned left through the same intersection. When the intersection finally cleared and there was no other traffic, I completed my turn against the red. There was traffic behind me waiting to turn so I felt I had to turn to avoid impeding the flow of traffic.

    The thing is, I'm not sure that I was stopped at the "limit line". Can I get a ticket for what I did? It seemed to be one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't situations. I would argue that, if my vehicle was past the limit line, I obviously crossed while the light was green, and therefore did not violate the law against running a red light, and was entitled to complete my turn, even though it took many seconds to do so. From my stopped position I was not blocking any cross traffic.

    Incidentally this is just one of many ordinary situations that arise every day and that before these doggone cameras started to pop up, I wouldn't have given a second thought to. Arg!

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Movement Through Red-Light Camera Intersection

    If you do get a ticket, I expect that the video from the intersection would back up your story.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Movement Through Red-Light Camera Intersection

    It should indeed - unless it cuts off the first part where I come to rest on the green, and begins sometime afterward. I was stopped on the green for perhaps 2 seconds, stopped for the yellow for the full 3.x seconds, and stopped for the red for an additional 3+ seconds. So, it's possible the video evidence won't show the entire thing, either because it didn't "fire" until I started to move, or (call me paranoid) due to deliberate editing by Redflex. I really don't know much about what the computers have stored - if they keep complete 24x7 records, I suppose I could subpoena the 30 seconds before any alleged infraction. If not, I'm stuck with what they choose to make available. Still, it seems like they won't have a case if they can't show me crossing the limit line against the red, which I didn't.

    Or can they? A literal interpretation of the code says you can't turn against the red if you didn't stop at the limit line - it says nothing about having crossed it during a green or yellow first. That doesn't seem reasonable, and I would like to think that the humans that have to review these things are reasonable (my previous ticket, for a rolling right turn, was, alas, deserved, and I plead guilty).

    I went back and walked that intersection again today, and it's possible I was stopped at the limit line, which would be right at the edge of the pedestrian crosswalk. At some intersections there's a marked limit line ahead of the crosswalk, but not this one, so now I'm a bit less worried.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Movement Through Red-Light Camera Intersection

    More fun at the same double-intersection. This time I'm on the other side proceeding southbound. The road has two lanes in each direction, speed limit 35mph, and I'm planning to go straight through. Sure enough, just as I reach the dilemma zone, the light turns yellow. Aware of the cameras and the fact that the yellow is set to the legal minimum (too short IMO), I'm going a bit below the speed limit and I have my foot covering the brake. As soon as I see the yellow I react instantly, bringing my car to a smooth, if very abrupt, stop. No squealing tires, no pulses from the ABS, just a very quick stop. Fortunately for me, the car behind me must have been preparing to stop, so no read-end collision. Next to me in the left lane, a large van also comes to an abrupt stop - he was behind me when I started braking, and ended up ahead of me after the stop. I'm stopped before the light turns red, not sure about the van. The van comes to rest half way into the pedestrian crosswalk, I'm farther back, near the limit line, though once again I can't swear I'm behind it. I brought my car to a stop as fast as the laws of physics would allow. I suspect the van did too, but I probably had a half-second advantage over the normal reaction time and had a few mph of lower speed to my advantage. Of course, some drivers might have gunned it and made it into the intersection in time to avoid a ticket. Question is, will I, or the van, get one because we didn't try to "make" the light but ended up over the limit line? Dang it I hate these robocops - at least a human officer can exercise judgement when deciding to cite you.

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