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  1. #1
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    Jul 2010
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    Default 5 mph Reduction - Speed Survey

    My question involves a speeding ticket from the State of: California

    I received my first speeding ticket last week for driving 59 in a 45. I was driving with the flow of traffic and happened to merge right into an officer's line of sight. He was on a motorcycle parked on the sidewalk with a radar gun (I am not sure which type).

    I would have just paid the ticket and gone on with my life, but as the officer was handing me the ticket he told me, "I am out here today due to citizen complaints of people speeding in the morning." As I was driving away this really irked me because most people drive 50-60mph in the morning and 45-55mph at other times.

    So, I decided to go get a speed survey of the road I was on. Here is a pdf of the survey:

    http://www.mediafire.com/?mza0libuzdj

    The 85th percentile is at 50mph (taken between 1:00 PM and 1:30 PM). When this survey was taken it was legal for cities to reduce the speed limit by 5mph without justification. However, a new policy directive (link: http://www.atssa.com/galleries/defau...icy7-01-09.pdf) states that an Engineering and Traffic Survey must document the conditions and justification for the 5mph reduction (page 5).

    The comments on the speed survey I have do not seem to justify a reason for the reduction in the posted speed limit. It reads like a description of the road. Are those comments justification of the 5mph reduction or just a description of the road?

    Also, would that policy directive effect the use of radar on this road or will it only apply to the next speed survey the city does?

    Thank you!

  2. #2
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    Jul 2010
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    Default Re: 5mph Reduction - Speed Survey

    Sorry for the double post, but my edit button is gone.

    My main question is:

    Is there a good chance I will be able to successfully defeat this ticket in traffic court?

    I already feel bad for driving 59 mph in a 45, but I will anger other drivers if I go slower. I really like a piece of that policy directive I linked to. It stated, "Speed limits cannot be set arbitrarily low, as this would create violators of the majority of drivers and would not command the respect of the public."

    I suppose I should add why that statement appeals to me. The road parallel to the one I was ticketed on was raised "reluctantly" to 50 mph during a City Hall meeting. The roads are almost identical, yet the road I was on did not receive the same attention. The only reason the city raised the speed limit was to enforce radar usage. If the Speed Trap law did not exist the city would have kept that road at 45 mph and continued to use radar.

    None of that would stand up in court as it is all speculation, but it really bothers me that this is going on.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
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    LA LA Land
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    Default Re: 5mph Reduction - Speed Survey

    Quote Quoting divinix
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    The 85th percentile is at 50mph (taken between 1:00 PM and 1:30 PM). When this survey was taken it was legal for cities to reduce the speed limit by 5mph without justification.
    Sounds to me like "residential density", as defined in Vehicle Code Section 627 is a major contributing factor (amongst others) cited by the engineer for the 5mph speed limit reduction on that stretch of roadway. You'll have to read the pertinent section and compare the conditions existing on that roadway to determine whether they fit within the criteria in question.

    Quote Quoting divinix
    View Post
    Also, would that policy directive effect the use of radar on this road or will it only apply to the next speed survey the city does?
    The new policy directive does not negate ALL previously validated speed limits. Once a new survey is conducted, the new standards would apply...

  4. #4
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    Jul 2010
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    Default Re: 5mph Reduction - Speed Survey

    Quote Quoting That Guy
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    Sounds to me like "residential density", as defined in Vehicle Code Section 627 is a major contributing factor (amongst others) cited by the engineer for the 5mph speed limit reduction on that stretch of roadway. You'll have to read the pertinent section and compare the conditions existing on that roadway to determine whether they fit within the criteria in question.


    The new policy directive does not negate ALL previously validated speed limits. Once a new survey is conducted, the new standards would apply...
    Alright, thanks!

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    1,622

    Default Re: 5mph Reduction - Speed Survey

    I agree with you that the survey really doesn't do anything but describe the road. It doesn't meet the standards set out by People v Goulet where it said:

    However, in matching existing conditions with the traffic safety needs of the community, engineering judgement may indicate the need for a further reduction of five miles per hour. The factors justifying such a further reduction are the same factors mentioned above. Whenever such factors are considered to establish the speed limit, they should be documented on the speed zone survey or the accompanying engineering report.

    "The Engineering and Traffic Survey should contain sufficient information to document that the conditions of CVC Section 627 have been complied with and that other conditions not readily apparent to a motorist are properly identified.

  6. #6
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    Jul 2010
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    Default Re: 5mph Reduction - Speed Survey

    Quote Quoting EWYLTJ
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    I agree with you that the survey really doesn't do anything but describe the road. It doesn't meet the standards set out by People v Goulet where it said:
    If it doesn't meet the standards, would that make the 5mph reduction unjustified? It seems clear to me after reading People v. Goulet that the survey has to clearly state the reason for the 5mph reduction, which this survey fails to do.

    These statements seem to support my case:

    "Only when roadside development results in traffic conflicts and unusual conditions which are not readily apparent to drivers, are speed limits somewhat below the 85 percentile warranted."

    "FN 20.*Review at trial or on appeal will tend to fall into patterns. Many speed limits will apparently be justified because, in accordance with the general rule, they are set at the 85th percentile speed or within 5 mph under that speed. Some speed limits may be justified because they are set five mph below the general rule, based on higher than expected accident rates or listed hidden hazards. Some speed limits may appear to be unjustified or questionable because:

    1. The speed limit is set 10 or more mph under the 85th percentile speed;

    2. The speed limit makes violators of a large percentage of drivers;

    3. "Conditions" listed are not hidden hazards, that is, they are readily apparent to a driver;

    4. There is no explanation how the conditions listed require the speed limit set; or

    5. The accident rate is not higher than would be expected statistically."

    #3-5 all apply to the speed survey I have. #2 might as well.


    Do you think I have a strong enough case to fight the ticket? I wish I could just hand a judge People v. Goulet and be done with it, but I feel like I am going to have a lot of convincing to do.

    I would really like to write up an argument and just send it in (trial by written declaration). I am guessing I would have to make a very strong case in order for that to work though.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    1,622

    Default Re: 5mph Reduction - Speed Survey

    Of course you have a strong enough case to fight the ticket. Whether it is strong enought to win may be different. Keep in mind that traffic judges are typically biased towards the state and to them, the law is just a suggestion.

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