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  1. #1
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    Sep 2010
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    Default Re: Stole but return the item, am i being charge with civil dispute?

    Note that the civil demand is 100% independent of your criminal charges. While geek is right that most of the respondents here (I'd be reticent to call them experts) recommend paying it, that is far from a universal view held by attorneys representing shoplifters. Of course if you ever intend to try to request lifting the trespass ban, making restitution might help.

    You didn't say where this happened, but in most cases if the police were not informed immediately, they probably aren't going to be. It's possible that the complaint will be handled later (up to a year typically). The amount you stole largely is irrelevant. In some states you may find a complaint in the mail and an order to go down to the police department for fingerprints and mug shots prior to the trial. If you have ANY contact with the police or prosecutors office, decline to speak with them until you have an attorney representing you. Looking up one now wouldn't be a bad idea.

    As pointed out, you can be guaranteed that Walmart will be less friendly the second time around. Just setting foot in the store is criminal. While they may not be running facial recognition on you, running afoul of anything (particularly being even suspected of shoftlifting), may result in you being held for the arrest on trespassing

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Stole but return the item, am i being charge with civil dispute?

    Quote Quoting flyingron
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    Note that the civil demand is 100% independent of your criminal charges. While geek is right that most of the respondents here (I'd be reticent to call them experts) recommend paying it, that is far from a universal view held by attorneys representing shoplifters. Of course if you ever intend to try to request lifting the trespass ban, making restitution might help.

    You didn't say where this happened, but in most cases if the police were not informed immediately, they probably aren't going to be. It's possible that the complaint will be handled later (up to a year typically). The amount you stole largely is irrelevant. In some states you may find a complaint in the mail and an order to go down to the police department for fingerprints and mug shots prior to the trial. If you have ANY contact with the police or prosecutors office, decline to speak with them until you have an attorney representing you. Looking up one now wouldn't be a bad idea.

    As pointed out, you can be guaranteed that Walmart will be less friendly the second time around. Just setting foot in the store is criminal. While they may not be running facial recognition on you, running afoul of anything (particularly being even suspected of shoftlifting), may result in you being held for the arrest on trespassing
    I wouldn't be; SecurityConsultant has some 30+ years at the highest levels of management in the loss prevention industry and has appeared as an expert witness in numerous civil and criminal trials. I have 10+ years experience working in loss prevention for several national companies, I have 11 years experience in law enforcement, have been through two law enforcement academies, and have personally arrested or been involved in the arrest of thousands of shoplifters. And that's just the two of us; I know that others who post here also have many years experience at the management level of loss prevention.

    Lawyers give stupid advice sometimes. Don't want to pay your civil demand? What are you going to do if and when the store sues you and the price automatically doubles due to court costs and fees? Will your lawyer pay it for you? No, he or she will just say something like "wow, I mean, I knew they COULD do that, but, um, I've never, ah, HEARD of it happening, at least, uh, as far as my past clients have told me - but - I guess I just represent them in criminal court, so I don't really follow up on what happens with the civil demand part of it anyway."

    To the OP: PAY the civil demand.

    I'm confused about how you do not know whether you will be prosecuted. Surely they TOLD you that? Were you not paying attention? If you want to know whether charges will be filed, call the store and ask. I'd guess they will not be, but in some areas the police aren't part of the equation in shoplifting cases and loss prevention files directly with the prosecutor. They are the only ones who can answer this.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Stole but return the item, am i being charge with civil dispute?

    That's right. SC works for the industry and is biased. You have zero knowledge of the civil side. Just about every REAL ATTORNEY I know says to ignore those letters. On the off-chance that they do go to the effort to actually file a civil suit, you're NOT that much worse off. The issue IS, and it is why I put the word lawyers in quotes, is that these demands don't spend a lot of effort. They write the letters in hopes of inducing a little revenue without any work. Letters are easy.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Stole but return the item, am i being charge with civil dispute?

    I suppose it depends on how much you like to gamble, and whether you signed any admission or agreement to pay. By NOT paying you could turn the $300-ish assessment into an $800 collections matter that will affect your credit rating and future.

    So, how lucky do you feel?

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Stole but return the item, am i being charge with civil dispute?

    Do you have any actual useful information or do you want to just repeat the same old nonsense. Palmer Reifler, the "law firm" that many of the big retailers, including Walmart employs has taken less than 10 cases to court. There's big business in perpetrating the myth that something will happen to you if you don't pay.

    Palmer Reifler isn't concerned about due process or the law either. They've aggressively abused people whose prosecutions have been dismissed when shown that they are factually innocent. These outfits are as scummy as their related debt collection brethren. Note that the prelitigation escalation of legal fees has not been shown to actually be legal in many states.

    Absent an actual lawsuit and judgement there's not going to be any impact on your credit report.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Stole but return the item, am i being charge with civil dispute?

    Quote Quoting flyingron
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    Do you have any actual useful information or do you want to just repeat the same old nonsense. Palmer Reifler, the "law firm" that many of the big retailers, including Walmart employs has taken less than 10 cases to court. There's big business in perpetrating the myth that something will happen to you if you don't pay.

    Palmer Reifler isn't concerned about due process or the law either. They've aggressively abused people whose prosecutions have been dismissed when shown that they are factually innocent. These outfits are as scummy as their related debt collection brethren. Note that the prelitigation escalation of legal fees has not been shown to actually be legal in many states.

    Absent an actual lawsuit and judgement there's not going to be any impact on your credit report.
    We do not use Palmer Reifler.

    As I said, regardless of what has happened or not happened in the past, the current landscape is changing. Believe me or don't.

    In a lawsuit, the "escalation of legal fees" is absolutely legal; our lawyers bill at somewhere around $500/hour. With them even getting involved, a civil demand can go from $200 (at the lowest level) to $700 in the blink of an eye. Again, believe me or don't.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Stole but return the item, am i being charge with civil dispute?

    This is a true story. I personally know some of the people involved.

    A group of teenage girls are in Walmart. One of them attempted to shoplift. All of the girls were taken into a room by LP. Their parents were called to come and get them. They were banned from Walmart, for life, and all of them received civil demand letters. One of the parents contacted an attorney (civil attorney not criminal attorney) and was advised NOT to pay the civil demand. The attorney called it "no better than extortion". His reasons were 1) only one of the girls was involved in actual shoplifting and 2) they never got past the registers therefore never had the opportunity to pay for the goods.

    Since then all of the girls are regular shoppers at Walmart without a problem although I am sure that if one of them was ever stupid enough to shoplift that the hammer would come down on them HARD. The parent who refused to pay did get one collection call about the civil demand letter a few months later, but after she repeated what the attorney told her, they hung up and that was the last she ever heard.

    I understand why retailers feel the need to fund their loss prevention activities by issuing civil demand letters. It actually makes sense to me on an economic/business level. However in this instance I agreed with the parent who refused to pay. Her child did not participate in any shoplifting, was not even suspected of any shoplifting but was merely singled out because she was part of a group where someone shoplifted. In fact, the LP at Walmart admitted that it appeared that none of the other girls were really aware of what was going on.

  8. #8
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    Jul 2014
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    Default Re: Stole but return the item, am i being charge with civil dispute?

    Quote Quoting flyingron
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    That's right. SC works for the industry and is biased. You have zero knowledge of the civil side. Just about every REAL ATTORNEY I know says to ignore those letters. On the off-chance that they do go to the effort to actually file a civil suit, you're NOT that much worse off. The issue IS, and it is why I put the word lawyers in quotes, is that these demands don't spend a lot of effort. They write the letters in hopes of inducing a little revenue without any work. Letters are easy.
    Not at all true. In fact, I just participated in a corporate conference call on this issue.

    As this and other message boards continue to give people advice to evade their commitments and advise them to NOT grow up, admit they made a mistake, and pay the consequences, lawsuits over these will become common place. It is true that some companies have historically not pursued these cases very often, but I can tell you with firsthand knowledge that that tide is changing - rapidly.

    Companies, confronted with the wisdom of the internet, and the fact that once you set up an operation of lawyers it's really not that expensive to pursue, are beginning to actually file suits on these demands. Think about credit card defaults: the card companies learned long time ago how to expediently sue and collect from default debts. Retailers are learning right now how that process works and can be applied to the issue of civil demands.

    The "REAL ATTORNIES" who give that advice are usually criminal lawyers - and as I said, how many of them follow up with their clients to see whatever became of the civil demand? Probably none. They don't really know what happens - they just talk.

    cdwjava's post nails it - the only part I take issue with is the amount. Turn a $300ish amount into $800? Nope - more like turn a $300 ish amount into a $2,000 one that keeps skyrocketing.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Stole but return the item, am i being charge with civil dispute?

    The $800 amount is when the matter solely goes to collections. Typically, here, we see an additional $500 tacked on when they go to collections. A lawsuit in Small Claims may result in higher costs.

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