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  1. #1
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    Default Re: Employee Disciplined for Missing Work After Confusion Over Request for Medical Le

    Quote Quoting Mr. Knowitall
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    The gist of your story appears to be this:

    Your husband doesn't like his job, and lied about having back pain in order to get some time off. He was able to get his doctor to disable him from work for three weeks, and his employer accommodated his leave under the FMLA. Right before the end of that three week leave ended, he decided to go to alcohol rehab. He contacted his employer and indicated that he was going into rehab. He didn't tell them that there would be a delay between when his approved period of disability ended and when he would be accepted into rehab. His employer expressed a willingness to accommodate his extended leave, apparently under the impression that his admission to rehab would be immediate.

    Your husband was accepted into a rehab program a week later. His employer contacted him to ask that he submit his FMLA paperwork for the additional leave. You received the message and relayed it to him. He chose to ignore it until much later; perhaps even until he returned to work in mid-April. His employer noticed that there was a discrepancy in his documentation, with his being cleared for work during the week of March 23, and has asked that he document that he was disabled from work during that period -- as if he was not disabled from work, he should have been showing up and doing his job even if he was planning to later enter rehab.

    Does that about sum it up?

    Your husband has been advised to get a note from his doctor about his being medically disabled from work due to alcoholism, with his employers suggesting that they would find such a note to be adequate to bridge the gap between his two periods of disability, but (even though he has no problem lying to his employer about his back condition, or lying to his doctor to get out of work due to faked or exaggerated back symptoms) he believes it would be "unethical" to get such a note from his doctor. Except if he was in fact disabled during that period due to his addiction, and if a doctor was sufficiently familiar with his condition to render the opinion that he was disabled, there would be nothing unethical about the doctor's issuing such a letter.

    Also, given that he applied for rehab and went through their intake and screening process, the rehab center should have an assessment of his condition in relation to the period of time at issue. But you say that he left the program after 14 days, supposedly due to a lack of insurance coverage. Looking at your dates, he went into rehab on March 27, left rehab on April 10, and returned to work on April 17 -- so is the actual problem with getting a letter from the rehab center that his employer might conclude was able to return to work as of April 13th?

    I'm not sure how or why his re-entry into rehab would cancel out his CAM, although perhaps that's somehow built into the union contract. If the only way he can avoid facing the consequences of his prior actions is to find a way back into rehab, then that would appear to be the means available to him to keep his job. If he doesn't want to pay for rehab if his insurance won't cover another round, it sounds like it's time for him to start applying for new jobs. Given that he hates his job, that's not a bad idea anyway.
    Actually it was clarified to me more by my husband's letter he wrote up to a union guy. He DID indeed tell his manager that he may go into rehab as early as that afternoon or it may not be until the following week. He told his boss he had a highly distressed mind and would not be able to perform his job correctly. His boss then told him to call the hotline and have them do an evaluation on him and they would put him on medical leave. He said he already did that and that they would not put him on leave until he was admitted to rehab. He then asked his manager if it would be possible to be put on admin leave until he was admitted to the hospital. His boss said "I can do that for you but let me check with xxx and get back to you." Approximately 45 minutes later, his boss called back and stated "You're good to go" and wished him good luck with treatment.

    His boss even admitted that he did say he'd put him on admin leave but then didn't follow through and now HIS boss won't allow him to do it and would fire my husband over something that my husband's boss did wrong.

    The problem isn't the time after he got out of rehab, it's that week before he went into treatment. But you think if he goes ahead and asks the doctor who did his initial assessment on March 27 for a note saying he wasn't fit that week prior before he went in, that that would be ethical? Even though this doctor had never seen him before? What about his regular doctor, although he had never mentioned his alcoholism/depression to his regular doctor?

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Employee Disciplined for Missing Work After Confusion Over Request for Medical Le

    Mr K and others who may consider taking time to help this OP, please see her posts on FA. She has admitted (loudly and proudly) that her husband has been screwing his employer for years now and that she thinks he ought to be able to continue to do so based solely on the fact that he got away with it before, he should therefore continue to get away with it.

    Just saying this particular OP is a bit of a time-waster for those who actually want to help someone.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Employee Disciplined for Missing Work After Confusion Over Request for Medical Le

    I think your husband has one hell of a nerve complaining about someone else's ethics. Since he doesn't appear to have any of his own.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Employee Disciplined for Missing Work After Confusion Over Request for Medical Le

    Quote Quoting eerelations
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    Mr K and others who may consider taking time to help this OP, please see her posts on FA. She has admitted (loudly and proudly) that her husband has been screwing his employer for years now and that she thinks he ought to be able to continue to do so based solely on the fact that he got away with it before, he should therefore continue to get away with it.

    Just saying this particular OP is a bit of a time-waster for those who actually want to help someone.
    Thanks for helping! I appreciate it

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Employee Disciplined for Missing Work After Confusion Over Request for Medical Le

    Quote Quoting Mapper
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    He DID indeed tell his manager that he may go into rehab as early as that afternoon or it may not be until the following week.
    That's all well and good -- but that doesn't mean that he was disabled from work during the time prior to his entry into rehab, and he chose not to tell his employer that he was sitting at home during the week after his approved FMLA leave ended and when he entered rehab.
    Quote Quoting Mapper
    He told his boss he had a highly distressed mind and would not be able to perform his job correctly.
    As your husband has been told by his employer and by his union rep, that's not sufficient.
    Quote Quoting Mapper
    His boss then told him to call the hotline and have them do an evaluation on him and they would put him on medical leave. He said he already did that and that they would not put him on leave until he was admitted to rehab.
    Was that yet another lie? Because if he went through a process to have his employer disable him from working based on his mental state, and they in fact did so, none of this would be an issue.
    Quote Quoting Mapper
    Approximately 45 minutes later, his boss called back and stated "You're good to go" and wished him good luck with treatment.
    If this was predicated upon your husband's lying to his supervisor, it doesn't help him.
    Quote Quoting Mapper
    The problem isn't the time after he got out of rehab, it's that week before he went into treatment.
    Right -- he is disabled during the time he was in rehab (and his employer has apparently not figured out that he left before the program ended), but he was not disabled from working after his three week leave for his (fake) back injury ended, but before he went into rehab.
    Quote Quoting Mapper
    But you think if he goes ahead and asks the doctor who did his initial assessment on March 27 for a note saying he wasn't fit that week prior before he went in, that that would be ethical?
    You have told us that your husband is seeing a doctor for his back condition. You have told us that your husband did a phone intake with an employer-approved specialist before he even told his supervisor that he was going to go to rehab. If his doctor was unable to detect any sign of mental stress, that could be an issue for him. If he lied about the phone intake, that would appear to be a big part of his present problem. If the best he can do is ask the doctor he saw at intake on March 27 to opine as to what his mental state may have been during the prior week, then that's the best he can do -- he can see what opinion the doctor can share and hope it satisfies his employer.
    Quote Quoting Mapper
    What about his regular doctor, although he had never mentioned his alcoholism/depression to his regular doctor?
    If he has a long history of treatment for various disorders, including those that he repeatedly uses to get FMLA leave from work, but has not once mentioned a problem with alcohol, mental stress or mental function, then it starts to look like he's once again malingering.

    You also make it sound like the insurance company found that inpatient treatment was not necessary, and that the treatment facility concurred with that determination when discharging him after 14 days.
    Quote Quoting eerelations
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    Mr K and others who may consider taking time to help this OP, please see her posts on FA. She has admitted (loudly and proudly) that her husband has been screwing his employer for years now....
    I don't actually have to look at another site to see that (a) she doesn't see a problem with her husband's lying to his employer to get protected time off of work, (b) she doesn't hold her husband accountable for his actions, and (c) her husband's decision to take five weeks off of work without pay was just fine, but somehow it's the employer's fault that she can't afford a cat sitter for her planned vacation.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Employee Disciplined for Missing Work After Confusion Over Request for Medical Le

    Quote Quoting Mr. Knowitall
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    That's all well and good -- but that doesn't mean that he was disabled from work during the time prior to his entry into rehab, and he chose not to tell his employer that he was sitting at home during the week after his approved FMLA leave ended and when he entered rehab.
    What did his employer think he would be doing then?? He told his boss he may not go into rehab until the following week sometime and that he wasn't mentally fit to be at his job until then and asked to be put on admin leave until he goes into rehab. The manager told him he'd find out if that was okay and then found out and called him back and told him as much and didn't tell him he needed to fill out any paperwork. As far as he knew he was in the clear. His manager knew he wasn't going to be back into work.
    Quote Quoting Mr. Knowitall
    Was that yet another lie? Because if he went through a process to have his employer disable him from working based on his mental state, and they in fact did so, none of this would be an issue.
    Nope. I can see by our phone records that he called the hotline that afternoon before he called his boss. It was a 15 minute phone call.
    Quote Quoting Mr. Knowitall
    Right -- he is disabled during the time he was in rehab (and his employer has apparently not figured out that he left before the program ended), but he was not disabled from working after his three week leave for his (fake) back injury ended, but before he went into rehab.
    There was no set time for him to be in rehab. I attended the intake session and the doctor said he could be there anywhere from 10-21 days and that most people leave around day 14-17.
    Quote Quoting Mr. Knowitall
    You also make it sound like the insurance company found that inpatient treatment was not necessary, and that the treatment facility concurred with that determination when discharging him after 14 days.
    It says right there in the benefits pamphlet, once I read it close enough, that insurance will pay for up to 14 days of treatment.
    Quote Quoting Mr. Knowitall
    I don't actually have to look at another site to see that (a) she doesn't see a problem with her husband's lying to his employer to get protected time off of work, (b) she doesn't hold her husband accountable for his actions, and (c) her husband's decision to take five weeks off of work without pay was just fine, but somehow it's the employer's fault that she can't afford a cat sitter for her planned vacation.
    Oh it's a H-U-G-E problem that my husband lies to me and his employer about not going to work! I have wanted to go behind his back and send a text to his manager telling him all the reasons that he isn't coming in, but seeing as how I have no backbone and can't tell my husband what I really think, I don't do it. Hell no it wasn't fine for him to take 5 weeks off of work but he won't listen to me and will do what he wants and I just go along with it like the meek person I am. And yes, it is the employers fault that we would have to pay for anything because it all goes back to his manager who didn't turn in the correct paperwork or inform my husband that him (the manager) simply saying "it's all taken care of...go get better and we'll see you when you get back" when he knew he wasn't going to be into work apparently wasn't enough and now the blame is back on my husband.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Employee Disciplined for Missing Work After Confusion Over Request for Medical Le

    Quote Quoting Mapper
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    What did his employer think he would be doing then?
    Given the facts you have shared, it should be beyond obvious to you that your husband's employer expects him to show up for work during periods in which he is not disabled from working. Anybody with even slight work experience understands that employers want employees to show up for work.
    Quote Quoting Mapper
    He told his boss he may not go into rehab until the following week sometime and that he wasn't mentally fit to be at his job until then and asked to be put on admin leave until he goes into rehab.
    You told us that. What you were asked was whether his story about pre-clearing the rehab with the employer-approved screening service was a lie. Also, telling his employer, "I may go into rehab tomorrow", does not of itself excuse his missing work if (a) he does not go into rehab and (b) he is not disabled.
    Quote Quoting Mapper
    The manager told him he'd find out if that was okay and then found out and called him back and told him as much and didn't tell him he needed to fill out any paperwork.
    Yet when he was told he in fact needed to fill out paperwork, which perhaps ties into his lie about having his entry into rehab previously approved, he chose to ignore that directive from his employer.
    Quote Quoting Mapper
    Nope. I can see by our phone records that he called the hotline that afternoon before he called his boss. It was a 15 minute phone call.
    You're playing games here. Your husband is able to speak. Why are you telling us about what phone records supposedly show rather than telling us what your husband told you. Why are you pretending that there is nobody who can speak to his state of mind or disability when you are claiming that he went through this screening?
    Quote Quoting Mapper
    I attended the intake session and the doctor said he could be there anywhere from 10-21 days and that most people leave around day 14-17.
    Then you were misleading us when you described the program as lasting a "full 21 days" and about his reasons for leaving the program, and he was lying to his employer about the length of time he would miss work. There would be no reason for the employer to be suggesting that he would keep his job if he completed the "full 21 days" of the program if he were honest about its length and had in fact completed the program. Which part was he lying about (or was he lying previously about the duration and now about his having completed the program)?

    Also, under the Mental Health Parity and Addiction Equity Act, which applies to your husband's workplace based on the information you have provided here and elsewhere, if a health insurance plan covers rehab it must extend the same level of coverage that they provide for any other medical condition. If the insurance company would not extend coverage past the initial 14-day period, absent the highly unlikely event that they impose a 14-day cap on any inpatient treatment for any medical condition, it would be because they found that inpatient rehab was not medically necessary.
    Quote Quoting Mapper
    And yes, it is the employers fault that we would have to pay for anything because it all goes back to his manager who didn't turn in the correct paperwork or inform my husband.....
    Nonsense. Your husband lied about his initial disability, he lied about continuing disability to avoid returning to work, and how his lies have caught up with him. That's all this is about -- your husband being caught in just one of his many, many lies, and facing a possible consequence.

    Your husband chose not to submit required documentation when asked to do so. He continues to refuse to substantiate his need for FMLA leave over the days at issue, and you suggest that he cannot. That's the price of lying.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Employee Disciplined for Missing Work After Confusion Over Request for Medical Le

    Quote Quoting Mr. Knowitall
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    Given the facts you have shared, it should be beyond obvious to you that your husband's employer expects him to show up for work during periods in which he is not disabled from working. Anybody with even slight work experience understands that employers want employees to show up for work.

    You told us that. What you were asked was whether his story about pre-clearing the rehab with the employer-approved screening service was a lie. Also, telling his employer, "I may go into rehab tomorrow", does not of itself excuse his missing work if (a) he does not go into rehab and (b) he is not disabled.

    Yet when he was told he in fact needed to fill out paperwork, which perhaps ties into his lie about having his entry into rehab previously approved, he chose to ignore that directive from his employer.

    You're playing games here. Your husband is able to speak. Why are you telling us about what phone records supposedly show rather than telling us what your husband told you. Why are you pretending that there is nobody who can speak to his state of mind or disability when you are claiming that he went through this screening?

    Then you were misleading us when you described the program as lasting a "full 21 days" and about his reasons for leaving the program, and he was lying to his employer about the length of time he would miss work. There would be no reason for the employer to be suggesting that he would keep his job if he completed the "full 21 days" of the program if he were honest about its length and had in fact completed the program. Which part was he lying about (or was he lying previously about the duration and now about his having completed the program)?

    Also, under the Mental Health Parity and Addiction Equity Act, which applies to your husband's workplace based on the information you have provided here and elsewhere, if a health insurance plan covers rehab it must extend the same level of coverage that they provide for any other medical condition. If the insurance company would not extend coverage past the initial 14-day period, absent the highly unlikely event that they impose a 14-day cap on any inpatient treatment for any medical condition, it would be because they found that inpatient rehab was not medically necessary.

    Nonsense. Your husband lied about his initial disability, he lied about continuing disability to avoid returning to work, and how his lies have caught up with him. That's all this is about -- your husband being caught in just one of his many, many lies, and facing a possible consequence.

    Your husband chose not to submit required documentation when asked to do so. He continues to refuse to substantiate his need for FMLA leave over the days at issue, and you suggest that he cannot. That's the price of lying.
    Well good! Then I hope they fire his ass and we can been done with this merry-go-round of crap!!

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Employee Disciplined for Missing Work After Confusion Over Request for Medical Le

    Quote Quoting Mr. Knowitall
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    I don't actually have to look at another site to see that (a) she doesn't see a problem with her husband's lying to his employer to get protected time off of work, (b) she doesn't hold her husband accountable for his actions, and (c) her husband's decision to take five weeks off of work without pay was just fine, but somehow it's the employer's fault that she can't afford a cat sitter for her planned vacation.
    I just suggested looking at FA in case anyone (not necessarily you Mr K) needed more background.

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