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  1. #1
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    Default Re: Refusal to Cooperate With Loss Prevention After a Shoplifting Accusation

    Quote Quoting John_28
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    Which court ruling states this?


    So, when I worked as a retail salesperson, I had the authority to search any woman's purse at will?
    There might be consequences for an unlawful detention or arrest if you nab someone to search their bag or person without cause, but you are not an agent of the state nor are you able to even seek a search warrant.

    Laws vary by state in this area. To make a blanket statement that LP or other retail folks are "agents of the state" when they affect a detention or an arrest is simply NOT TRUE. Nor must they seek a search warrant to conduct a search since they are legally unable to do so.

    Here is a good discussion of how these laws apply in my state of CA:

    http://le.alcoda.org/publications/fi...CESEARCHES.pdf

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Refusal to Cooperate With Loss Prevention After a Shoplifting Accusation

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
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    There might be consequences for an unlawful detention or arrest if you nab someone to search their bag or person without cause, but you are not an agent of the state nor are you able to even seek a search warrant.

    The above link states that, even if a mall security guard conducts an unlawful search, the fruits of that unlawful search are admissible because that guard is not an agent of the police. Fine.

    But, if the guard is not an agent of the police, and he is conducting an unlawful search, I have the right to physically resist that search. And, knowing that the fruits of the illegal search will be admissible in court, I just might have an incentive to resist to the extent that I seriously injure that guard.

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    Quote Quoting tonynewman
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    many stores (at least in Baltimore) would have signs posted at the entrance that stated all bags can be searched if they enter the store,, or something to that effect, though I never have seen anyone look through a persons bag for no reason, but the signs are there,, I suspect that gives them the right to search a persons bag
    I'm not sure that signs would make a search legal. If I post a sign saying that anyone who comes into my store will be punched, that doesn't mean that I can legally punch a person.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Refusal to Cooperate With Loss Prevention After a Shoplifting Accusation

    Quote Quoting John_28
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    T
    But, if the guard is not an agent of the police, and he is conducting an unlawful search, I have the right to physically resist that search. And, knowing that the fruits of the illegal search will be admissible in court, I just might have an incentive to resist to the extent that I seriously injure that guard.

    - - - Updated - - -
    Oh great, you have just made a simple shoplifting charge against you turn into a robbery charge.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Refusal to Cooperate With Loss Prevention After a Shoplifting Accusation

    Quote Quoting John_28
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    The above link states that, even if a mall security guard conducts an unlawful search, the fruits of that unlawful search are admissible because that guard is not an agent of the police. Fine.

    But, if the guard is not an agent of the police, and he is conducting an unlawful search, I have the right to physically resist that search. And, knowing that the fruits of the illegal search will be admissible in court, I just might have an incentive to resist to the extent that I seriously injure that guard.

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    I'm not sure that signs would make a search legal. If I post a sign saying that anyone who comes into my store will be punched, that doesn't mean that I can legally punch a person.
    not only do the stores in Baltimore have those signs that state they can search any bag that enters the store, but Maryland (Baltimore) is one of the few states that allow video cameras in the dressing room of stores. but only if there is a sign posted stating they are taping you.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Refusal to Cooperate With Loss Prevention After a Shoplifting Accusation

    Quote Quoting John_28
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    But, if the guard is not an agent of the police, and he is conducting an unlawful search, I have the right to physically resist that search. And, knowing that the fruits of the illegal search will be admissible in court, I just might have an incentive to resist to the extent that I seriously injure that guard.
    That depends on the circumstances and the state. If you are detained/arrested pursuant to state law for a crime committed in the presence of the person doing the detention, they may very well have the right to conduct a search of your person and possessions if for no other reason than their safety!

    Some states may have a law that specifically precludes a private person search, but, there is no specific statute that makes it a crime for a private person to snoop inside of another's personal property and there are laws that prevent you from battering others - especially if you have been detained or arrested under the law. Not to mention the fact that using force in the commission of a theft is something we call "robbery" (as mentioned by WhosThatGuy above) which is a violent and serious felony.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Refusal to Cooperate With Loss Prevention After a Shoplifting Accusation

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
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    Some states may have a law that specifically precludes a private person search, but, there is no specific statute that makes it a crime for a private person to snoop inside of another's personal property and there are laws that prevent you from battering others - especially if you have been detained or arrested under the law. Not to mention the fact that using force in the commission of a theft is something we call "robbery" (as mentioned by WhosThatGuy above) which is a violent and serious felony.

    A security guard can snoop into my bag only if the bag is just sitting there, out of my hands. But what if I am holding the bag and I am using force to prevent the guard from snooping into the bag?

    And how would a guard just snoop into my pockets? I can use force to stop him from doing that.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Refusal to Cooperate With Loss Prevention After a Shoplifting Accusation

    Quote Quoting John_28
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    A security guard can snoop into my bag only if the bag is just sitting there, out of my hands. But what if I am holding the bag and I am using force to prevent the guard from snooping into the bag?
    If you use force, you could be charged with battery. If you use force to conceal stolen goods, it's robbery.

    And how would a guard just snoop into my pockets? I can use force to stop him from doing that.
    And if you did, you could also be charged with crimes under applicable state including - as I mentioned - battery and/or robbery, depending on the facts.

    Most (perhaps ALL) states permit the reasonable use of force to safely detain people. Part of this detention can include - at a minimum - a search for weapons. If you resist, they may be permitted to use reasonable force to overcome that resistance.

    Again, it all depends on applicable state law and there are 50 of them plus the District of Columbia, so your mileage may vary as to the specifics. But, you have no sacred right to be secure in your pockets and pocketbook when it comes to a search or an arrest even by a private individual. The concept of reasonableness generally applies.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Refusal to Cooperate With Loss Prevention After a Shoplifting Accusation

    Quote Quoting cdwjava
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    But, you have no sacred right to be secure in your pockets and pocketbook when it comes to a search or an arrest even by a private individual. The concept of reasonableness generally applies.
    The link that you showed me, stated that the fruits of illegal searches conducted by mall security guards, would still be admissible in court because security guards are not police agents.

    But, in a scenario where a security guard is attempting to UNlawfully search me, I would probably have the right to stop him with force. I can't just allow a guard to conduct an unlawful search, especially if the fruits of the search can be used against me.

    Once again, I am talking about UNlawful searches. The searches you are talking about seem to be lawful ones.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Refusal to Cooperate With Loss Prevention After a Shoplifting Accusation

    Quote Quoting John_28
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    The link that you showed me, stated that the fruits of illegal searches conducted by mall security guards, would still be admissible in court because security guards are not police agents.

    But, in a scenario where a security guard is attempting to UNlawfully search me, I would probably have the right to stop him with force. I can't just allow a guard to conduct an unlawful search, especially if the fruits of the search can be used against me.

    Once again, I am talking about UNlawful searches. The searches you are talking about seem to be lawful ones.
    And who is to determine what an UNlawful search is? You? If you try, you run the risk of additional criminal charges. Remember, there is really no specific statute that prevents them from searching you if they have you detained or under arrest - particularly if they are searching for weapons.

    Best bet would be to sue for whatever tort might occur later in civil court rather than risk criminal prosecution.

    If you're talking about a clerk trying to grab your bag as you exit the store, you can probably get away with withholding it from him and walking off ... but, that's different from a shoplifting arrest or detention, and not what we're talking about here.

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