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  1. #1
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    Default Re: Federal Agency Policy vs Federal Law

    Quote Quoting Gaoler
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    My question is: can the Bureau make a policy that conflicts with Federal Law?

    what is the policy that is in conflict with federal law?

    Any entity has the right to control weapons on their property. Your right to carry a weapon does not supercede their rights to control their property.

    Title 18 Section 926B states:
    Quote:
    (a) Notwithstanding any other provision of the law of any State or any political subdivision thereof, an individual who is a qualified law enforcement officer and who is carrying the identification required by subsection (d) may carry a concealed firearm that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, subject to subsection (b).
    (b) This section shall not be construed to supersede or limit the laws of any State that—
    (1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property; or
    (2) prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms on any State or local government property, installation, building, base, or park.


    You answered your own question but since you really want to carry your gun, you apparently refused to see the answer.

  2. #2
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    Nov 2008
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    Default Re: Federal Agency Policy vs Federal Law

    Quote Quoting jk
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    what is the policy that is in conflict with federal law?

    Any entity has the right to control weapons on their property. Your right to carry a weapon does not supercede their rights to control their property.

    Title 18 Section 926B states:
    Quote:
    (a) Notwithstanding any other provision of the law of any State or any political subdivision thereof, an individual who is a qualified law enforcement officer and who is carrying the identification required by subsection (d) may carry a concealed firearm that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, subject to subsection (b).
    (b) This section shall not be construed to supersede or limit the laws of any State that—
    (1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property; or
    (2) prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms on any State or local government property, installation, building, base, or park.


    You answered your own question but since you really want to carry your gun, you apparently refused to see the answer.

    Title 18 926B provides that it shall not supersede or limit the laws of any State. It has no provisions in regards to Federal Laws.

    Would this situation be any different if say the Federal Agency that was prohibiting firearms on it's property by policy were not the employing Federal Agency? i.e. The Department of Labor (Occupational Health & Safety Administration) created a policy that prohibits anyone from bringing a firearm onto their property and I'm a Federal Law Enforcement Officer from another agency.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Federal Agency Policy vs Federal Law

    ok, maybe I missed it but where is this established (from your first post):

    So as seen from above, employees of the BOP may carry a firearm both on duty (provided it's part of their duties for that post) and off duty.
    and where does it state you have a right to carry a firearm and simply not permission?

    If it is not a right (as in consitutional or even granted by law), it is merely permission to carry within the defined allowances. An entity does have the rights to impose rules and unless it interferes with your rights, it is enforcable.

    I did not read through the enitire policy statement you referenced (5510.12) but did you notice it is under the heading of :
    Inmate and Custody Management

    If the restriction is in there, how about you finding it and posting it or at least narrowing down my search a bit.?

    and if you still have an argument, here is the simple answer; storing the weapon in the car or in a lockbox on your employers premises is not "carrying" the weapon. Pass that hurdle and I'll look further.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Federal Agency Policy vs Federal Law

    Quote Quoting jk
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    ok, maybe I missed it but where is this established (from your first post):



    and where does it state you have a right to carry a firearm and simply not permission? Title 18 Section 3050 is the law that grants the ability to carry a firearm, Title 18 Section 926B reiterates that again.

    If it is not a right (as in consitutional or even granted by law), it is merely permission to carry within the defined allowances. An entity does have the rights to impose rules and unless it interferes with your rights, it is enforcable.

    I did not read through the enitire policy statement you referenced (5510.12) but did you notice it is under the heading of :
    Inmate and Custody Management

    If the restriction is in there, how about you finding it and posting it or at least narrowing down my search a bit.?I'm not sure I understand, I quoted the section of PS5510.12 that states the ban. That policy statement applies to all who wish to enter Bureau property except for inmates.

    and if you still have an argument, here is the simple answer; storing the weapon in the car or in a lockbox on your employers premises is not "carrying" the weapon. Pass that hurdle and I'll look further.
    It's not so much "carrying" as simply possesing.
    Replies in red.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Federal Agency Policy vs Federal Law

    Quote Quoting Gaoler
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    Replies in red.
    Title 18 Section 3050 is the law that grants the ability to carry a firearm, Title 18 Section 926B reiterates that again.
    quote where it grants you the right to carry concealed weapons both on and off duty.

    I'm not sure I understand, I quoted the section of PS5510.12 that states the ban. That policy statement applies to all who wish to enter Bureau property except for inmates
    as I said, the section you took that rule from is titled: Inmate and Custody Management

    That would infer that any rule in that section dealt with inmates, not employees. I did not see what you posted in the section to be able to determine the context of the statement. If you want to take something out of contrext and utilize it, I can prove there are men on mars as stated by NASA. You need more than a snippet and I'm not hunting for it.

    It's not so much "carrying" as simply possesing.
    Mkae up your mind. If the weapon is not on your body, it is not in your possession. Just to support that, try eating the sandwich you possess but left on the table at home when you went to work. It is in your possession in the same manner as the weapon in your car.

    Carrying a fire arm is specifically intended to mean having it on your person. I have not seen a law that involves carrying a firearm that was not involving

    So, if you can jump the last hurdle, I'll endevour to disprove the remaining points but since it is impossible, you need to realize "carrying" a concealed weapon does not mean it is locked up in your car or in a lock box and as such, is not applicable in your arguement.

  6. #6
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    Nov 2008
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    4

    Default Re: Federal Agency Policy vs Federal Law

    quote where it grants you the right to carry concealed weapons both on and off duty.
    Title 18 350 provides for the on duty
    Officers and employees of the said Bureau of Prisons may carry firearms under such rules and regulations as the Attorney General may prescribe.
    The rules & regulations the AG prescribes are that an employee is required to attend weapons training and work posts that require the use of a weapon unless you are a chaplain or a PHS employee detailed to the Bureau of Prisons. In order to provide the cite for that I'd have to dig around in the hiring paperwork and that would take a long while, just trust me on that one. We are required to be able carry a weapon on duty. Concealed though is not part of it. We carry like street cops do, on a holster on our hip or an AR15 slung over our shoulder.

    Title 18 926B provides for the off duty concealed
    (a) Notwithstanding any other provision of the law of any State or any political subdivision thereof, an individual who is a qualified law enforcement officer and who is carrying the identification required by subsection (d) may carry a concealed firearm that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, subject to subsection (b).
    We meet all qualifications of subsection (b).

    as I said, the section you took that rule from is titled: Inmate and Custody Management

    That would infer that any rule in that section dealt with inmates, not employees. I did not see what you posted in the section to be able to determine the context of the statement. If you want to take something out of contrext and utilize it, I can prove there are men on mars as stated by NASA. You need more than a snippet and I'm not hunting for it.
    I didn't make up the name for that section. PS 5510.12 has the prohibition. If you open the PDF it is on page 4. Here is a link directly to 5510.12.

    In regards to the possessing vs carrying. The policies prohibit simply having a weapon in your vehicle. They can search your vehicles. Refusal to consent to a search requires that you leave the premises. If you are employed, you will most likely loose your job (it's been attempted once to my knowledge and I believe the employee regained their job after he brought sued the Bureau). See PS 5510.12 page 7 for the entirety of this quote:
    You are prohibited from engaging in prohibited activities
    or possessing prohibited objects on Bureau grounds, or in
    Bureau facilities, without the knowledge and consent of
    the warden. Violators may be detained or arrested for
    possible criminal prosecution, either by Bureau staff, or
    local or Federal law enforcement authorities.
    Prohibited Activities include any activities that could
    jeopardize the Bureau’s ability to ensure the safety,
    security, and orderly operation of Bureau facilities, and
    protect the public, including, but not limited to,
    violations of Titles 18 and 21 of the United States Code,
    Federal regulations, or Bureau policies.
    Prohibited Objects include, but are not limited to,
    weapons; explosives; drugs; intoxicants; currency;
    cameras of any type; recording equipment; telephones;
    radios; pagers; electronic devices; and any other objects
    that violate criminal laws or are prohibited by Federal
    regulations or Bureau policies.
    I hope I was specific enough. If anything else is still unclear, let me know and I'll quote/post anything you need for reference. I've attempted to only quote relevant sections of each PS or Code since it would take up a massive amount of space to copy the entire PS/Code.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Federal Agency Policy vs Federal Law

    Everything I read in the PDF file references visitors, not employees. If they want to apply it to employees, they can do that as well.

    this is under the "program objectives"


    c. Prevent visitors entering Bureau grounds and facilities from
    conducting prohibited activities or possessing prohibited

    objects, by conducting authorized searches.


    and this:

    1. PURPOSE AND SCOPE.
    This policy provides staff procedures and
    guidance for searching inmate visitors, both social and legal,
    official visitors, contractors, and volunteers, entering Bureau
    of Prisons (Bureau) grounds and facilities, to maintain the
    safety, security, and orderly operation of those facilities, and

    protect the public.

    --------------------------------


    So you are saying this is applicable to you?

    Prohibited Objects include, but are not limited to,
    weapons; explosives; drugs; intoxicants; currency;
    cameras of any type; recording equipment; telephones;
    radios; pagers; electronic devices; and any other objects
    that violate criminal laws or are prohibited by Federal
    regulations or Bureau policies.
    You cannot bring your phone to work, at all? can't have an MP3 player? Can't carry money for the lunch room?

    In regards to the possessing vs carrying. The policies prohibit simply having a weapon in your vehicle. They can search your vehicles. Refusal to consent to a search requires that you leave the premises. If you are employed, you will most likely loose your job (it's been attempted once to my knowledge and I believe the employee regained their job after he brought sued the Bureau). See PS 5510.12 page 7 for the entirety of this quote:
    that was my point. The law states you can carry a weapon, not store it. Leaving it in your car of in a lock-up is not carrying, it is storing or transporting. There is a difference .

    it really doesn't make any difference though.

    Since you want to apply this to you, here is the catch all phrase:


    § 511.12 Prohibited objects.
    (a) “Prohibited objects,” as defined in 18 U.S.C. §
    1791(d)(1), include any objects that could jeopardize the
    Bureau’s ability to ensure the safety, security, and orderly

    operation of Bureau facilities, and protect the public.


    Having a weapon in your car does give them concern that somebody could break into your car and steal your weapon and then have said weapon on prison grounds. Prohibiting the weapons is within their powers.
    So, either live with the rules or break the rules and fight it in court when you are terminated as well as possibly prosecuted.

    As to the person you spoke about the sued and got their job back? I have my doubts. If they did get put back on the job, I would believe it was due to negotiations and not the outcome of any trial.

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