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  1. #1
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    Nov 2008
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    Default Federal Agency Policy vs Federal Law

    My question involves employment and labor law for the state of: Federal Government

    I work for the Federal Bureau of Prisons (BOP). Employees working for the BOP are considered Law Enforcement Officers. Title 18 Section 3050 states:
    An officer or employee of the Bureau of Prisons may—
    (1) make arrests on or off of Bureau of Prisons property without warrant for violations of the following provisions regardless of where the violation may occur: sections 111 (assaulting officers), 751 (escape), and 752 (assisting escape) of title 18, United States Code, and section 1826 (c) (escape) of title 28, United States Code;
    (2) make arrests on Bureau of Prisons premises or reservation land of a penal, detention, or correctional facility without warrant for violations occurring thereon of the following provisions: sections 661 (theft), 1361 (depredation of property), 1363 (destruction of property), 1791 (contraband), 1792 (mutiny and riot), and 1793 (trespass) of title 18, United States Code; and
    (3) arrest without warrant for any other offense described in title 18 or 21 of the United States Code, if committed on the premises or reservation of a penal or correctional facility of the Bureau of Prisons if necessary to safeguard security, good order, or government property;
    if such officer or employee has reasonable grounds to believe that the arrested person is guilty of such offense, and if there is likelihood of such person’s escaping before an arrest warrant can be obtained. If the arrested person is a fugitive from custody, such prisoner shall be returned to custody. Officers and employees of the said Bureau of Prisons may carry firearms under such rules and regulations as the Attorney General may prescribe.
    Title 18 Section 926B states:
    (a) Notwithstanding any other provision of the law of any State or any political subdivision thereof, an individual who is a qualified law enforcement officer and who is carrying the identification required by subsection (d) may carry a concealed firearm that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, subject to subsection (b).
    (b) This section shall not be construed to supersede or limit the laws of any State that—
    (1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property; or
    (2) prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms on any State or local government property, installation, building, base, or park.
    (c) As used in this section, the term “qualified law enforcement officer” means an employee of a governmental agency who—
    (1) is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of, or the incarceration of any person for, any violation of law, and has statutory powers of arrest;
    (2) is authorized by the agency to carry a firearm;
    (3) is not the subject of any disciplinary action by the agency;
    (4) meets standards, if any, established by the agency which require the employee to regularly qualify in the use of a firearm;
    (5) is not under the influence of alcohol or another intoxicating or hallucinatory drug or substance; and
    (6) is not prohibited by Federal law from receiving a firearm.
    (d) The identification required by this subsection is the photographic identification issued by the governmental agency for which the individual is employed as a law enforcement officer.
    (e) As used in this section, the term “firearm” does not include—
    (1) any machinegun (as defined in section 5845 of the National Firearms Act);
    (2) any firearm silencer (as defined in section 921 of this title); and
    (3) any destructive device (as defined in section 921 of this title).
    So as seen from above, employees of the BOP may carry a firearm both on duty (provided it's part of their duties for that post) and off duty.

    Currently the BOP prohibits it's employees from bringing their personally owned firearms onto the property and storing them (in any fashion, i.e. locked up in their cars or secured in the lock-boxes provided for visiting law enforcement agencies). Specifically Policy Statement 5510.12 is the prohibiting policy. To quote a section of it
    Weapons are prohibited from being stored in vehicles on Bureau
    grounds, except as otherwise authorized by Bureau policy.
    I have been unable to find the authorization that the BOP uses to allow visiting law enforcement agencies to store their weapons either in the provided lock-boxes or locked in their vehicles. It might be there, but I can't find it in the hundreds of Policy Statements that the Bureau has (available here)

    My question is: can the Bureau make a policy that conflicts with Federal Law?

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Federal Agency Policy vs Federal Law

    Quote Quoting Gaoler
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    My question is: can the Bureau make a policy that conflicts with Federal Law?

    what is the policy that is in conflict with federal law?

    Any entity has the right to control weapons on their property. Your right to carry a weapon does not supercede their rights to control their property.

    Title 18 Section 926B states:
    Quote:
    (a) Notwithstanding any other provision of the law of any State or any political subdivision thereof, an individual who is a qualified law enforcement officer and who is carrying the identification required by subsection (d) may carry a concealed firearm that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, subject to subsection (b).
    (b) This section shall not be construed to supersede or limit the laws of any State that—
    (1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property; or
    (2) prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms on any State or local government property, installation, building, base, or park.


    You answered your own question but since you really want to carry your gun, you apparently refused to see the answer.

  3. #3
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    Nov 2008
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    Default Re: Federal Agency Policy vs Federal Law

    Quote Quoting jk
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    what is the policy that is in conflict with federal law?

    Any entity has the right to control weapons on their property. Your right to carry a weapon does not supercede their rights to control their property.

    Title 18 Section 926B states:
    Quote:
    (a) Notwithstanding any other provision of the law of any State or any political subdivision thereof, an individual who is a qualified law enforcement officer and who is carrying the identification required by subsection (d) may carry a concealed firearm that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, subject to subsection (b).
    (b) This section shall not be construed to supersede or limit the laws of any State that—
    (1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property; or
    (2) prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms on any State or local government property, installation, building, base, or park.


    You answered your own question but since you really want to carry your gun, you apparently refused to see the answer.

    Title 18 926B provides that it shall not supersede or limit the laws of any State. It has no provisions in regards to Federal Laws.

    Would this situation be any different if say the Federal Agency that was prohibiting firearms on it's property by policy were not the employing Federal Agency? i.e. The Department of Labor (Occupational Health & Safety Administration) created a policy that prohibits anyone from bringing a firearm onto their property and I'm a Federal Law Enforcement Officer from another agency.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Federal Agency Policy vs Federal Law

    ok, maybe I missed it but where is this established (from your first post):

    So as seen from above, employees of the BOP may carry a firearm both on duty (provided it's part of their duties for that post) and off duty.
    and where does it state you have a right to carry a firearm and simply not permission?

    If it is not a right (as in consitutional or even granted by law), it is merely permission to carry within the defined allowances. An entity does have the rights to impose rules and unless it interferes with your rights, it is enforcable.

    I did not read through the enitire policy statement you referenced (5510.12) but did you notice it is under the heading of :
    Inmate and Custody Management

    If the restriction is in there, how about you finding it and posting it or at least narrowing down my search a bit.?

    and if you still have an argument, here is the simple answer; storing the weapon in the car or in a lockbox on your employers premises is not "carrying" the weapon. Pass that hurdle and I'll look further.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Federal Agency Policy vs Federal Law

    Quote Quoting jk
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    ok, maybe I missed it but where is this established (from your first post):



    and where does it state you have a right to carry a firearm and simply not permission? Title 18 Section 3050 is the law that grants the ability to carry a firearm, Title 18 Section 926B reiterates that again.

    If it is not a right (as in consitutional or even granted by law), it is merely permission to carry within the defined allowances. An entity does have the rights to impose rules and unless it interferes with your rights, it is enforcable.

    I did not read through the enitire policy statement you referenced (5510.12) but did you notice it is under the heading of :
    Inmate and Custody Management

    If the restriction is in there, how about you finding it and posting it or at least narrowing down my search a bit.?I'm not sure I understand, I quoted the section of PS5510.12 that states the ban. That policy statement applies to all who wish to enter Bureau property except for inmates.

    and if you still have an argument, here is the simple answer; storing the weapon in the car or in a lockbox on your employers premises is not "carrying" the weapon. Pass that hurdle and I'll look further.
    It's not so much "carrying" as simply possesing.
    Replies in red.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Federal Agency Policy vs Federal Law

    Quote Quoting Gaoler
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    Replies in red.
    Title 18 Section 3050 is the law that grants the ability to carry a firearm, Title 18 Section 926B reiterates that again.
    quote where it grants you the right to carry concealed weapons both on and off duty.

    I'm not sure I understand, I quoted the section of PS5510.12 that states the ban. That policy statement applies to all who wish to enter Bureau property except for inmates
    as I said, the section you took that rule from is titled: Inmate and Custody Management

    That would infer that any rule in that section dealt with inmates, not employees. I did not see what you posted in the section to be able to determine the context of the statement. If you want to take something out of contrext and utilize it, I can prove there are men on mars as stated by NASA. You need more than a snippet and I'm not hunting for it.

    It's not so much "carrying" as simply possesing.
    Mkae up your mind. If the weapon is not on your body, it is not in your possession. Just to support that, try eating the sandwich you possess but left on the table at home when you went to work. It is in your possession in the same manner as the weapon in your car.

    Carrying a fire arm is specifically intended to mean having it on your person. I have not seen a law that involves carrying a firearm that was not involving

    So, if you can jump the last hurdle, I'll endevour to disprove the remaining points but since it is impossible, you need to realize "carrying" a concealed weapon does not mean it is locked up in your car or in a lock box and as such, is not applicable in your arguement.

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