Visitation with Teen Grandaughter

My question involves grandparents rights in the State of: MI
My 15 yr old grandaughter (also in MI) has been having problems at home. While I understand, parental rules need to be followed, I also know this child is at the breaking point. I also know there are two sides to every story but, when everything is taken away from her, for weeks or months, at a time. I'm afraid she may feel so lost, she could hurt herself. I was reading posts and saw a thread making mention of grandparents not wanting teens but only little children. Not the case here.
Her mother has already told me she dislikes her visiting me because she returns home empowered. At this point I do not want to file anything legally as we are on speaking terms.
My question is this; Is it possible for my grandaughter to come and stay for a period, perhaps after school lets out. Then, IF Mom won't allow it, how do I proceed.

Thanks,
ocgrandma

You don't mention your degree and/or license as a mental health professional. Therefore, your opinion of your granddaughter's mental health is worth nothing.

The quick answer to your question is no.

Why would you think you would get the legal authority to intervene in the parenting of your granddaughter?

Just because you think you know best doesn't mean anything to a court of law.

Further, as a parent myself, if grandma told me that she was going to legally find a way to parent my children because I wasn't doing a good job, it would be the LAST time grandma would be allowed to talk to my children.

Butt out, grandma. If you believe the child is being abused, dial 911.

<<<Why would you think you would get the legal authority to intervene in the parenting of your granddaughter?>>>>
I believe I said I did NOT want to do anything legally.

<<<Just because you think you know best doesn't mean anything to a court of law.>>>
I NEVER presumed to know best. In fact I said there are two sides.

<<<Further, as a parent myself, if grandma told me that she was going to legally find a way to parent my children because I wasn't doing a good job, it would be the LAST time grandma would be allowed to talk to my children.>>>
Again, I never said my daughter was'nt doing a good job, and I do NOT want to parent her child. My concern is because this may come to a boiling over point, and this child may want to leave. I surely don't want her on the streets.
I was just trying to look down the road and be prepared.
A little TESTY? are we?

Quote:

---

Quoting ocgrandma

---

<<<Why would you think you would get the legal authority to intervene in the parenting of your granddaughter?>>>>
I believe I said I did NOT want to do anything legally.

---

You asked what you could do if mom said no.... how you could proceed.

I assumed you wanted a legal answer to the question.

Quote:

---

<<<Just because you think you know best doesn't mean anything to a court of law.>>>
I NEVER presumed to know best. In fact I said there are two sides.

---

That is the point. There aren't two sides.

There is the side of the parents... the legal guardians of the child. No other side matters.

Quote:

---

<<<Further, as a parent myself, if grandma told me that she was going to legally find a way to parent my children because I wasn't doing a good job, it would be the LAST time grandma would be allowed to talk to my children.>>>
Again, I never said my daughter was'nt doing a good job, and I do NOT want to parent her child.

---

That is EXACTLY what you said.

You said, and I quote...

Quote:

---

everything is taken away from her, for weeks or months, at a time

---

and

Quote:

---

Her mother has already told me she dislikes her visiting me because she returns home empowered.

---

Empowered is an interesting choice of words. What are you telling the daughter she is "empowered" to do?

Her mother has already told you that you are on thin ice here. You asked what you could to do force your granddaughter to spend more time with you.

The only way to do that is through the courts. Period. Even if.

You are interfering with the child's legal parents authority. The only way to do that is to have the parents declared unfit.

Quote:

---

My concern is because this may come to a boiling over point, and this child may want to leave. I surely don't want her on the streets.

---

That is overly dramatic. In fact, so much so that I am wondering if it is actually the child writing.

Quote:

---

I was just trying to look down the road and be prepared.
A little TESTY? are we?

---

Not at all. You, however, are interfering where you have no authority to do so.

I will say that removing things from a child's room is an extreme step. I give you even money that you don't know a tenth of the story.

Maybe if you talked to the parents rather than the child you would obtain a more complete picture.

You will find that teenagers are very good at telling you exactly what you want to hear. You are a willing ear for all that teenage angst.

You need to direct her back to her parents. You are on very shaky legal ground.... the parents can bar you from any contact legally.

Given your willingness to interfere with their authority, there isn't a court in the country that would prevent that prohibition.

Quote:

---

Quoting ocgrandma

---

I was reading posts and saw a thread making mention of grandparents not wanting teens but only little children. Not the case here.

---

I believe I was the one who said that. You're a rarity, Grammy. If you've looked around, you know that the vast majority of "grandparents rights" questions are for "How can I nab my 8 week old grandson, my daughter in-law is a bitch?". I think I've only ever seen two other grandparents ask after their teenaged grandchildren.

So for that much, thank you. I was raised by my grandparents myself, and I'm grateful for their supreme sense of give-a-damn. I literally could have died if they had not stepped in.

And there's the thing...

See, your granddaughter is being punished by having things taken away from her. That's...well, it sucks for her, but that's not abuse, and it doesn't make your daughter a bad parent, either. Sure, she's pissed that she's being deprived of privileges - and you and I both know full well that things like computers, phones, iPods, and even having guests over are privileges - but it's a teenager's prerogative to blow things out of proportion and staple her hand to her forehead while she bemoans the injustice of it all.

But I'll betcha dollars to donuts she did something rotten enough to merit losing her privileges. Bad grades? Mouthing off at Mom? Sneaking out of the house? Maybe she got busted smoking? Disciplinary issues at school or at home?

Taking privileges away is pretty mild, and it's nothing that you have any right to interfere in.

My grandparents were awarded custody of me when I was 12 because my drug-dealing parents beat me comatose, not because they took my Walkman away.

Jeff is correct, in that you really have no legal rights to your granddaughter, and your daughter can legally cut off all communications between the two of you if she feels you're overstepping your bounds.

If she's telling you that your granddaughter is "empowered" after visits with you - which is a nice way of saying "She's a disobedient little snot" - then she's telling you that you're overstepping your bounds.

You need to step off.

Which is not to say that you shouldn't pay attention to your granddaughter. Certainly be a listening ear, but be a listening ear only, not a giver of any advice other than "You'd make things easier on yourself if you followed your Mom's rules/did well in school/didn't go out of your way to try the rebellion thing". Be your granddaughter's sounding board, but don't try to come between her and her parents.

Now, if your granddaughter is ACTUALLY being ABUSED - and I mean ABUSED, not simply punished for being a brat - you need to get CPS involved. You can't just hie off to the attorney to apply for custody, things need to go through proper channels, with all the proper investigations and documentation. Frankly, it doesn't sound like the child is being abused, so...

Sit down with your daughter and GENTLY tell her that you want a relationship with your granddaughter, and that you want to be your daughter's ALLY. Ask her if she might like a break from the teen angst and offer to let the child come visit for a couple weeks. If she says No, then she says No. Tell her the offer remains open if she changes her mind. Then leave it at that.

Don't tell her she's Doing It Wrong. Don't tell her that you don't approve of the way she's caring for her child. You wouldn't have liked it very well to have an outsider tell you how to raise your kids, so don't do it to your daughter, either. You don't live there, and you don't know.

Quote:

---

Quoting ocgrandma

---

At this point I do not want to file anything legally as we are on speaking terms.

---

Your only option, without filing something legally, is to get parental consent.

Quote:

---

Quoting ocgrandma

---

My question is this; Is it possible for my grandaughter to come and stay for a period, perhaps after school lets out.

---

Yes, but only if you get parental consent.

Quote:

---

Quoting ocgrandma

---

Then, IF Mom won't allow it, how do I proceed.

---

You would have to file a legal action. But I very much doubt that the facts would support any type of child protective or custody action (absent a currently pending child custody action and a history of your having been the child's primary caregiver, I don't expect that you would have standing to try to initiate a custody proceeding). And I don't know that you have the requisite set of facts to seek grandparenting time through the courts:

Quote:

---

Quoting MCL 722.27b Order for grandparenting time; circumstances; acknowledgment of parentage; commencement of action; procedures; affidavit; basis for entry of order; best interests of child; alternative dispute resolution; frequency of filing complaint or motion seeking order; attorney fees; order prohibiting change of domicile of child; effect of entry of order; modifying or terminating order; record; termination of grandparent's right to commence action.

---

(1) A child's grandparent may seek a grandparenting time order under 1 or more of the following circumstances:

(a) An action for divorce, separate maintenance, or annulment involving the child's parents is pending before the court.

(b) The child's parents are divorced, separated under a judgment of separate maintenance, or have had their marriage annulled.

(c) The child's parent who is a child of the grandparents is deceased.

(d) The child's parents have never been married, they are not residing in the same household, and paternity has been established by the completion of an acknowledgment of parentage under the acknowledgment of parentage act, 1996 PA 305, MCL 722.1001 to 722.1013, by an order of filiation entered under the paternity act, 1956 PA 205, MCL 722.711 to 722.730, or by a determination by a court of competent jurisdiction that the individual is the father of the child.

(e) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (13), legal custody of the child has been given to a person other than the child's parent, or the child is placed outside of and does not reside in the home of a parent.

(f) In the year preceding the commencement of an action under subsection (3) for grandparenting time, the grandparent provided an established custodial environment for the child as described in section 7, whether or not the grandparent had custody under a court order.

(2) A court shall not permit a parent of a father who has never been married to the child's mother to seek an order for grandparenting time under this section unless the father has completed an acknowledgment of parentage under the acknowledgment of parentage act, 1996 PA 305, MCL 722.1001 to 722.1013, an order of filiation has been entered under the paternity act, 1956 PA 205, MCL 722.711 to 722.730, or the father has been determined to be the father by a court of competent jurisdiction. The court shall not permit the parent of a putative father to seek an order for grandparenting time unless the putative father has provided substantial and regular support or care in accordance with the putative father's ability to provide the support or care.

(3) A grandparent seeking a grandparenting time order shall commence an action for grandparenting time, as follows:

(a) If the circuit court has continuing jurisdiction over the child, the child's grandparent shall seek a grandparenting time order by filing a motion with the circuit court in the county where the court has continuing jurisdiction.

(b) If the circuit court does not have continuing jurisdiction over the child, the child's grandparent shall seek a grandparenting time order by filing a complaint in the circuit court for the county where the child resides.

(4) All of the following apply to an action for grandparenting time under subsection (3):

(a) The complaint or motion for grandparenting time filed under subsection (3) shall be accompanied by an affidavit setting forth facts supporting the requested order. The grandparent shall give notice of the filing to each person who has legal custody of, or an order for parenting time with, the child. A party having legal custody may file an opposing affidavit. A hearing shall be held by the court on its own motion or if a party requests a hearing. At the hearing, parties submitting affidavits shall be allowed an opportunity to be heard.

(b) In order to give deference to the decisions of fit parents, it is presumed in a proceeding under this subsection that a fit parent's decision to deny grandparenting time does not create a substantial risk of harm to the child's mental, physical, or emotional health. To rebut the presumption created in this subdivision, a grandparent filing a complaint or motion under this section must prove by a preponderance of the evidence that the parent's decision to deny grandparenting time creates a substantial risk of harm to the child's mental, physical, or emotional health. If the grandparent does not overcome the presumption, the court shall dismiss the complaint or deny the motion.

(c) If a court of appellate jurisdiction determines in a final and nonappealable judgment that the burden of proof described in subdivision (b) is unconstitutional, a grandparent filing a complaint or motion under this section must prove by clear and convincing evidence that the parent's decision to deny grandparenting time creates a substantial risk of harm to the child's mental, physical, or emotional health to rebut the presumption created in subdivision (b).

(5) If 2 fit parents sign an affidavit stating that they both oppose an order for grandparenting time, the court shall dismiss a complaint or motion seeking an order for grandparenting time filed under subsection (3). This subsection does not apply if 1 of the fit parents is a stepparent who adopted a child under the Michigan adoption code, chapter X of the probate code of 1939, 1939 PA 288, MCL 710.21 to 710.70, and the grandparent seeking the order is the natural or adoptive parent of a parent of the child who is deceased or whose parental rights have been terminated.

(6) If the court finds that a grandparent has met the standard for rebutting the presumption described in subsection (4), the court shall consider whether it is in the best interests of the child to enter an order for grandparenting time. If the court finds by a preponderance of the evidence that it is in the best interests of the child to enter a grandparenting time order, the court shall enter an order providing for reasonable grandparenting time of the child by the grandparent by general or specific terms and conditions. In determining the best interests of the child under this subsection, the court shall consider all of the following:

(a) The love, affection, and other emotional ties existing between the grandparent and the child.

(b) The length and quality of the prior relationship between the child and the grandparent, the role performed by the grandparent, and the existing emotional ties of the child to the grandparent.

(c) The grandparent's moral fitness.

(d) The grandparent's mental and physical health.

(e) The child's reasonable preference, if the court considers the child to be of sufficient age to express a preference.

(f) The effect on the child of hostility between the grandparent and the parent of the child.

(g) The willingness of the grandparent, except in the case of abuse or neglect, to encourage a close relationship between the child and the parent or parents of the child.

(h) Any history of physical, emotional, or sexual abuse or neglect of any child by the grandparent.

(i) Whether the parent's decision to deny, or lack of an offer of, grandparenting time is related to the child's well-being or is for some other unrelated reason.

(j) Any other factor relevant to the physical and psychological well-being of the child.

(7) If the court has determined that a grandparent has met the standard for rebutting the presumption described in subsection (4), the court may refer that grandparent's complaint or motion for grandparenting time filed under subsection (3) to alternative dispute resolution as provided by supreme court rule. If the complaint or motion is referred to the friend of the court for alternative dispute resolution and no settlement is reached through friend of the court alternative dispute resolution within a reasonable time after the date of referral, the complaint or motion shall be heard by the court as provided in this section.

(8) A grandparent may not file more than once every 2 years, absent a showing of good cause, a complaint or motion under subsection (3) seeking a grandparenting time order. If the court finds there is good cause to allow a grandparent to file more than 1 complaint or motion under this section in a 2-year period, the court shall allow the filing and shall consider the complaint or motion. Upon motion of a person, the court may order reasonable attorney fees to the prevailing party.

(9) The court shall not enter an order prohibiting an individual who has legal custody of a child from changing the domicile of the child if the prohibition is primarily for the purpose of allowing a grandparent to exercise the rights conferred in a grandparenting time order entered under this section.

(10) A grandparenting time order entered under this section does not create parental rights in the individual or individuals to whom grandparenting time rights are granted. The entry of a grandparenting time order does not prevent a court of competent jurisdiction from acting upon the custody of the child, the parental rights of the child, or the adoption of the child.

(11) A court shall not modify or terminate a grandparenting time order entered under this section unless it finds by a preponderance of the evidence, on the basis of facts that have arisen since entry of the grandparenting time order or were unknown to the court at the time it entered that order, that a change has occurred in the circumstances of the child or his or her custodian and that a modification or termination of the existing order is necessary to avoid creating a substantial risk of harm to the mental, physical, or emotional health of the child. A court modifying or terminating a grandparenting time order under this subsection shall include specific findings of fact in its order in support of its decision.

(12) A court shall make a record of its analysis and findings under subsections (4), (6), (8), and (11), including the reasons for granting or denying a requested grandparenting time order.

(13) Except as otherwise provided in this subsection, adoption of a child or placement of a child for adoption under the Michigan adoption code, chapter X of the probate code of 1939, 1939 PA 288, MCL 710.21 to 710.70, terminates the right of a grandparent to commence an action for grandparenting time with that child. Adoption of a child by a stepparent under the Michigan adoption code, chapter X of the probate code of 1939, 1939 PA 288, MCL 710.21 to 710.70, does not terminate the right of the parent of a deceased parent of the child to commence an action for grandparenting time with that child.

---

If this is an intact marriage, and both parents agree about your level of involvement with your grandchild, you're not going to get grandparents' rights (and a disagreement between them would be something for them to work out, not something that would justify a court action). If you're the paternal grandmother and there has been a divorce, your access would normally be through your own child.

Your best bet is to build and maintain a healthy relationship with the child's mother/parents.

Thank you so much for your reply. Bio Parents are not together, never married. Mother is w/ SO (signifigant other) for 5 years. I'm not going to file legal action. It's ridicoulous. I had this grandchild dropped at my doorstep when she was 5 while her mother went into rehab. Knock on wood - clean-sober for 10+ years. Perhaps because of her past, she wants nothing like that to happen to her own child. When I said there were two sides.....I meant the earful I was getting from my grandaughter and her mother's side. I see that my words, could be taken two ways, and you don't know me from Adam. I know I am a non-entity, and that it does not matter how I feel, or how they parent, etc. I just want to be able to be there - if and when the do-do hits the fan, so to speak. Again thanks, it's so much nicer having an ADULT conversation, running ideas back and forth, rather than being told to Butt Out.

What you don't seem to gather is that we ALL told you, granted, in different ways, to butt out.

We ALL told you that you have no legal right to this child except exactly what the child's parents (not bioparents... just parents) give you.

We also all understood completely what you meant by two sides... one is the side of the child's legal parent and the other is from a 15 year old girl that is grounded and doesn't like it very much.

The only side that the law recognizes is the child's legal parents. Unless that child is being abused - and nothing you have said even approaches that standard - then the child does exactly what those parents tell them to do. Nothing more, nothing less.

Further, if will get the result you expect to get. Maybe Mom doesn't like your interference because you keep expecting for another shoe to drop. When the doo doo hits the fan.

Every single 15 year old on the planet thinks that their parents are too hard on them. Including mine. Every single 15 year old will tell a willing ear that they just can't handle living with their parent(s) another moment.

Rather than "empowering" her, you need to start telling your granddaughter that there are people she needs to listen to and obey... and you aren't one of them.

Thanks Lawresearchermissy, for your response. It was nice, well thought out and on a personal level. I'm a level headed person, educated, coming from 3 generations of attorneys tho not an attorney myself. I thought of her word "empowered" , for a long time. She may have a point.
My grandaughter told me she cannot question anything. If she does, it's disrespectful, rude etc. At 15, excuse me, but 3 years from being an adult, negotiations have to start somewhere. Otherwise, it's just grounding for the sake of limiting movement or un-parenting, aka Warden Mom. So I do tell her she has an opinion and that she needs to try to sit down and talk it out. You know how a dog cours when it's been beat every day? Well, thats what she does, she cours because she feels she cannot stand up and have a voice, about anything. Yes, right down to the clothes she wears, make-up etc. Even the journal she wrote in was read and removed because it revealed anger after being again grounded. Now, she keeps everything inside. (she carries a 4.0 in school) Funny, when I laid the law down, my daughter left home to be with her dead beat dad and the courts told me there really wasn't much I could do at 16.
I will continue to be a listening platform for her and she knows she's welcome in my home anytime and for whatever length of time. Not much more I can do. Thanks again!

Jeff - get a life. I think we should teach our children to respect adults in general. You just want to rile people up on this site?. I did my research before posting, so I was ready. You have quite a few "strikes" against you. I was told a long time ago from a Judge actually - that " There's an ass for every seat"
Have a great day!

Quote:

---

Quoting ocgrandma

---

My grandaughter told me she cannot question anything. If she does, it's disrespectful, rude etc. At 15, excuse me, but 3 years from being an adult, negotiations have to start somewhere.

---

Enh. That's really for her Mama to decide. My grandparents certainly took the Iron Rule approach with me, and I bristled, but I don't seem to have turned out too badly for it. It's not the way I'm raising my kids, but then, as The Mama, I get to decide how to raise mine, just like you got to decide how to raise yours, and your daughter gets to decide how to raise hers.

Legally, it's called "complete care and control", and that applies until your granddaughter is 18. Legally, her Mama OWNS her until then.

Quote:

---

Quoting ocgrandma

---

I will continue to be a listening platform for her and she knows she's welcome in my home anytime and for whatever length of time.

---

Be exceedingly careful with mention of "welcome in my home". At her age, she's still prone to teenaged drama, and that might include running away.

If she runs to you, and you don't send her back to her Mama, you can be charged with harboring a runaway, a misdemeanor charge carrying a $500 fine and up to a year in jail.