Shoplifting at a California Urban Outfitters

My question involves criminal law for the state of: California

Hi,

Tonight my friend and I were caught stealing from Urban Outfitters, I know we're stupid, but I have some questions.

We're both 18 years old and have had completely clean records prior to tonight. We tried to run but stopped after about 20 feet, since apparently the manager got a cop who happened to be nearby involved. The worker grabbed my friend's purse out of her hands and started to go through it, but the worker next to me asked for mine and I handed it over. I also bought about $25 worth of things, but stole less than $50. I didn't take the tags off my items because at other stores the beepers don't go off if the soft tags are attached, usually. My friend ripped the tags off her merchandise before putting it in her purse, but the employees found the price tags on the floor of the store and brought them back.

We didn't admit to anything at all and made up a quick lie about the items being gifts from a friend who stole it and we happened to still have them in our purses (stupider I know), but the manager kept on telling us how stupid and idiotic we are, made fun of my friend who was crying, and finally forced us sign a form saying we got caught for shoplifting and we can't go into any UO/associated stores for 3 years or we'll face trespassing charges.

They took us into the back office (the cop and manager) and took down our local addresses, permanent addresses (we are college students and live in the residence halls so we only had our college ID's), social security numbers, dates of birth, heights/weights/physical descriptions etc., phone numbers, and I think that's it.

The manager said we'll get a letter in the mail sometime soon telling us to pay back UO for what we stole. Pretty much everything we tried to take was on sale, so it totaled less than $50. The cop gave us citations and kept threatening to arrest us, but wound up just writing the tickets. He did, though, keep on clicking and un-clicking his handcuffs in our faces. I'm sorry for all the unnecessary details but this happened just 2 hours ago and I'm still very freaked out, so here are my main questions:

1) The Civil Demand Customer Notice says that "these damages take into consideration the value of the merchandise, whether or not it has been damaged or rendered non-saleable, the costs of security, and any other restitution permitted by law." How much do you think they'll make me pay? The full price of the items, or just the sale price? I didn't rip any tags off so they're still "saleable". What are these other restitutions permitted by law?

2) I am currently employed, but not in retail. Will they tell my employer what happened?

3) They're just giving us a misdemeanor. Do misdemeanors eventually come off your record? And is this the kind of crime we need to tell potential employers about, or do only felonies need to be disclosed?

4) How will they know if we go back into any UO, not just the one we stole from? The manager made a snide remark that they have "facial recognition technology" but I don't think that's true. This store had no security cameras at all. All they have is our heights, weights, eye colors, and hair colors. I paid with my debit card so they have that info, and if for some stupid reason I do go back into one, I obviously can't use a card with my name on it to pay.

5) We got a citation that says we have the choice of either paying the fines, or contesting it. Do we have to go to court if we just suck it up and pay whatever legal fines they slap on us? And, what happens if we contest it, what's the procedure for that?

6) What do you think they'll make us pay for the citation? (Not just the thing from UO's lawyers themselves, the one from the police.)

7) Are they going to tell our parents? They got our home addresses even though they said they would mail the UO fine letter to our local (college) one. I think home/permanent addresses were just recorded for the sake of background information.

8) My friend doesn't have any money right now and is not employed, and she can't tell her parents. Does the county court system or whatever it's called have some sort of debt pay-off plan?

9) Did I have the option of just paying for it right there? I had the money on me to do so, and I didn't rip the tags off or anything, but it might have seemed like a really obvious admission of guilt.

10) What's going to happen when we go to court? Is it going to be like a real trial or can we just pay it and quietly get out of there?

I know people who have gotten caught shoplifting from UO in the past, and one of them only had to pay for right then and there what she tried to steal (but didn't get to keep the items), and she wasn't allowed to go back to that specific UO for a month, that's it. Is that what usually happens, or did we get slammed hard for some reason? Personally I think we just had really bad luck with a cop being nearby, we didn't know. And yes I know we're stupid, I have learned my lesson.

Also, one last question: is this worth contesting? If we contest does that mean we have to get a lawyer, and would we have to pay the county fines first anyway?

Thank you very much. Your help means a lot to me.

First off, you should get a consultation with a Criminal Defense lawyer. Most offer free consultations.

1: They add up the cost by full retail price, not sale/clearance prices. I don't know what California's Civil Demand guidelines are. If you were in Michigan, the minimum is $250. Yes, this is permitted by law. And if it does not get paid, you can be sued and expect to pay the stores legal fees, so the amount can easily triple.

2. Doubtful. However, the charge would show up a Criminal Background check.

3. You may qualify for a Diversion program and it could get expunged after a period of time.

And it depends on the job application. If it asks about Misdemeanors, then you have to answer "yes". Remember, it will show on a background check.

4. go back to any of their stores only if you want to risk adding "Criminal Trespass" to your record. Stores share information, including photos with all their other stores. Also, many stores have "traveling" Loss Prevention officers, meaning they don't work everyday in the same store. And yes, some stores do have face recognition systems.

5. Since police were involved, yes, you have to go to court. Also expect to pay court fines and costs.

6. Depends on your area. Mine was $300.

7. Doubtful they will call them up. However, that Civil Demand letter could accidentally be mailed to your home address.

8. The county might allow a payment plan. The Civil Demand is possible if she calls immediately and sets up a payment schedule.

9. Very rarely will they do this.

10. You will want to plead "I stand mute" and see if you can get a Public Defender. Yes, it is a real trial. By just pleading guilty, you leave the judges hands tied to give you the maximum penalty and the current charge. You might be lucky enough to have the charge downgraded.

Please read through the stickied threads at the top.

I read through the stickies, thank you, it was all very helpful.

How are they allowed to add up the full prices when it was already on sale? They're getting much more money out of it than they should have. I know I'm in no moral place to complain about what is and isn't fair, but really, that doesn't make sense.

Where can I find a criminal defense lawyer who will give a free consultation? I'm in the San Francisco Bay Area up north. And, our court is the one in Oakland. Do you think they'll be a bit more lenient there since they see much, much worse things on a daily basis?

Thanks again.

How to find a lawyer: Crack open the yellow pages, or hit Yellowpages.com and type in Criminal Defense Attorneys. Check out their ads, talk to them, see if you know of anyone who has used John Lawyer before.

They add up the full original retail value. The value on the original tag. They are allowed by law to do so. (Maybe Missy or Jeff can shed more light on this?).

My thinking (and I still would love Missy and Jeff on this): Sale prices go back up in most cases.

Having worked retail:

Bottle of Kendall Jackson Chardonnay:
Regular price: $14.99
Sale Price: 9.99 (buy in cost).
This is to entice buyers to come to the store. Oh, and many people while looking in the store will buy a few more items. The cheese aisle is close and wine and cheese go together like a nice shirt and pair of jeans.

Saturday, I walk in and steal a bottle.
Sunday, the store is going to end the sale.
Since I stole that bottle: They are out their original investment of $9.99, plus their $5.00 profit.

The full price is used for calculation.

Why? Because they can and there isn't a law against it.

If you are asking if there is an advantage to stealing only what is on sale, the answer is no.

Retailers have gotten ripped off for between 15 and 19 BILLION dollars this year.

Besides, there is sometimes, but only sometimes, a correlation between the amount stolen and the civil demand.

Thank you for shedding light on that, it makes sense. I hadn't considered it in that way. Does this mean that the civil demand could be anything, not just the price of the items stolen? I read (I think in the CA PC #484) that they can only get $1000 or less from me.

Also, this might be a bit unrelated to the topic at hand, but what's it going to be like when my court date rolls around? My friend thinks it's just going to be a quiet meeting with the judge to figure out what the punishment will be, but I keep on imagining some grand event with a jury and random people watching and the whole shebang. Is there any possibility of getting community service, a small (relatively, anyway) fine, and a diversion program?

If you can't afford a lawyer, you may qualify for a public defender - ask him/her about a Diversion Program.

I don't know how stores in California calculate their Civil Demand. Usually it is something like: A minimum of X amount, or # times the value of the merchandise taken, whichever is greater.

I don't know what the court date will be like (I had a lawyer and it was all wrapped up in one appointment). I had to go into a courtroom, in front of a podium, and yes there were other people there for their sentencing.

Check out your local courthouse website and it should tell you the steps along the way. This is how it is according to my area: arraignment, pre-trial conference, plea, final conference/jury selection, trial.

Do I have to go to trial, or can I just plead guilty on my initial court date and try to wrap it all up/receive my punishment right then and there? I just don't want to make this into a bigger deal than it already is. I'm guilty, and everybody knows it. I've made a horrible mistake so I'm not going to try to plead not guilty and weasel my way out of it: I deserve whatever happens to me in this case. I just want a quick and appropriate way out of it ASAP, if that's even possible.

Quote:

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Quoting needquickhelp

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Do I have to go to trial, or can I just plead guilty on my initial court date and try to wrap it all up/receive my punishment right then and there? I just don't want to make this into a bigger deal than it already is. I'm guilty, and everybody knows it. I've made a horrible mistake so I'm not going to try to plead not guilty and weasel my way out of it: I deserve whatever happens to me in this case. I just want a quick and appropriate way out of it ASAP, if that's even possible.

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NO.

Pleading not guilty isn't exactly what you think it is. Think of it more as the price of entry to the game.

If you plead guilty, you don't get an attorney and sentencing begins immediately. If you plead not guilty, ask the court for a public defender and try to negotiate a sentence for your guilty plea that won't follow you around like herpes the rest of your life.

Pleading not guilty doesn't mean that you are saying you didn't do it. It means that you are standing on your right under the Constitution to have the prosecution prove you guilty in a court of law.

I applaud you for being willing to plead guilty when you are guilty. I've been sounding off in another thread about most people's unwillingness to step up to the plate and take responsibility for their actions. But a guilty plea will never go away and you will have to admit to it on job applications. Pleading not guilty is by no means a guarantee that this will not happen - regardless of how you plead, you are a legal adult and if convicted, this is going to be on your record forever. They do not "fall off" after a certain number of years like credit records. But you do have the right to have the prosecution PROVE you guilty. Think about your options before you decide.

But if I plead not guilty, then I'll have to go through the scary process of getting a lawyer/PD, going in front of a jury, and just... the thought of all that frightens me beyond belief. I don't want to make it anything dramatic. I'm not even close to being fully aware of how this will all pan out. I would just like this to be quiet and over.

It's your decision. But I STRONGLY recommend that you discuss your options with a lawyer before you decide. Many will provide free or low cost consultations.

I know you want it over it.

And as another person said - it is great that you want to accept responsibility for your actions.

By pleading Guilty, you give the judge no option but to sentence you for Retail Fraud, and there is no chance of a plea agreement to a lesser charge. Think which looks better on a job application when stating that yes, you have a Misdemeanor on your record: Retail Fraud or Disorderly Person? Consider that before deciding to just plea guilty....

Is there a chance that the judge will appreciate my honesty if I plead guilty and not slam me too hard? It's my first time getting in any sort of trouble, and there wasn't anything particularly bad about my case, just your usual run-of-the-mill idiot shoplifting.

I'm sorry. I know you want this over with.

If you plead guilty, the judge's hands are pretty much tied as to the sentence, and can't offer you a plea deal as the prosecutor could offer you through a lawyer or public defender.

BTW...are you a minor, or 20 or under? You might qualify for a Diversion Program or something that would remove it from your record after a period of time.

My friend and I are both 18. I turned 18 less than a month ago, and we both have clean records. I'm sincerely hoping for a diversion program... thank you for understanding.

You're welcome.

Definitely talk with a lawyer. Ask how you go about getting either a Diversion Program or a Deferred Sentence.

Definitely follow the advice that Pandorasbox and others have given you here.

Off topic: How do you send personal messages to other members?

I wanted to send Pandorasbox a personal message, because she changed my life. And I want to thank her for it.

Thanks. I'll send you a message so you can message me back.