Slightly Sexual Conversation With a Minor

We are not going to rationalize illegal behaviour. We give you advice on what the law means and what to expect. We do not teach you how to "fly" under the "radar" so that you can get away with talking sex to minors.

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Quoting THEAMAZINGCHAN

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at what pointndoes it become illegal? everyone lies about things on the net.
if the person says they are sweet 16 how is anyone else to know if its a "lil old lady" flashingback to her youth. in my opinion if anyone says they are under age then they are most likley old. i find that all teens lie and say they are adults when they can on the net.

so if a 60 year old says shes 14 and you talk explict or send porn did you commit a crime?

if a 12 year old says shes 19 and you send porn or talk sex is it a crime?

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In most jurisdictions, if the person identifies him/herself as a minor, the conversation is illegal.

Even if the person on the other side is a 45 year old cop named Bernie.

Please produce the statistics that state that most teens on the web are actually adults.

do you mean to ask, the people that say they are teens? or the people that are really teens?

i never thought the "fantasy talks" were illegal. and having not experienced them i have no "gut feeling" or "instinct" of my own so i will rely on the board members for this.


i though it was only illegal if you actually truly knew them to be children. (such as Internet chat with the 15yo babysitter who personally face to face gave you her screen name so you know for sure its her in the chat)

i did not know that fantasy "talk" was prosecutable.
in all the stuff i heard from date line etc. there were actual false identities created and false social profiles schools etc.

i did not know if you went to a chat room called "old divorced people" (min age 18+ to enter) and someone there says lets have a prom night role play. its illegal if you weren't of consensual age at your prom.

so when you are an adult saying you are a child you become a child. (net chat)
but when you are a child trying to be an adult that is not possible. (try buying beer underage)

so sometimes we graciously let people pick an age and accept it and believe it and prosecute against it.
and some time we just call them liars even when it is true and make them prove thier age.

it strikes me as odd (not amazing) that in all other legal situations you must prove an age and in these cases all you must do is suggest an age.

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Quoting cyjeff

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In most jurisdictions, if the person identifies him/herself as a minor, the conversation is illegal.

Even if the person on the other side is a 45 year old cop named Bernie.

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You are right about adults being able to pretend to be minors and get people convicted of crimes online enticement crimes. The highly controversial website Perverted Justice does this all the time.

What I'm not sure about is whether or not if a minor claims to be an adult if a crime is committed. If that is the case, it seems to have a serious chilling effect on free speech, for anyone who was lied to in an adult chatroom would be in danger of criminal prosecution. In fact, this would seem to go against the Reno vs. ACLU decision (http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/96-511.ZO.html).

About "conversations" and "fantasy" being illegal: To my knowledge, every state has laws that make soliciting a minor under the age of consent to have sex a crime (this is what perverted justice records people doing). Every state also has child pornography statues that make creating, possessing, distributing, and usually soliciting child pornography a crime. The federal government also has statutes against such things.

However, the federal government, and most states, to my knowledge, do not make explicit online conversations illegal. This came up in the Mark Foley situation, as there was nothing to charge him for as he only said a couple dirty things to 16-17yos but never tried to meet them for sex (at least until they were of age).

I'm not entirely sure why this is, but my guess is that such laws would always brush against free speech protections, as well as risk making sexual education websites/message boards illegal.

A couple states have made explicit conversations with minors illegal, such as Minnesota and Texas (http://www.articlesbase.com/non-fict...ge-106495.html and https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=609.352), and both of those require conversations about sex to be "with the intent to arouse or gratify sexual desires", thus leaving informative and non-arousing discussions legal).

My recommendation would be to only talk explicitly with adults, but it's hard to find statues that make talk illegal, unless you were soliciting children for sex or asking for child pornography or exposing children to pornography. Asking a 15 year old if she is a virgin, while not really appropriate, doesn't really go far enough to be a crime, from the best I can tell.

If anyone knows of any statutes or court cases that shed more light on questions like this, please let me know.

EDIT- I forgot one thing. Many states have laws about providing minors with material "harmful to minors". "Harmful to minors" is generally defined with the same three pronged definition that obscenity takes in the Miller case. Generally, it's something similar to

a)Whether the average person, applying contemporary community standards, would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest,

b)Whether the work depicts/describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct or excretory functions[2] specifically defined by applicable state law,

c)Whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value.

(credit to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_test)

Often times "as applicable to minors" is added after one or more of those prongs when defining "harmful to minors" rather than "obscene".

So if you send porn to a minor, expect to get hit with giving a minor harmful material.

Asking a 15 year old if she's a virgin probably doesn't meet this three-pronged standard. That being said, it's not very honorable or appropriate, so I don't recommend it.

so im a 55 year old man.
i can close this window and open a chat room.
i can say im a 14 year old girl and want sex.
and if people talk sex to me they are breraking the law?

then i can report them?
then they will get arrested?

is this true?
can this realy happen?
is it that easy?

well then

can i buy powdered soap
sell it as drugs and report the buyers?

where does it end..................................

Again you are rationalizing. The test is "what would a reasonable man believe". Reasonable man being just someone of average intelligence in the same situation. And you have to remember that the average man does not chat to minors on the net. The "girl" stated she was 15. I surmise that a reasonable man would have believed she was the age she said she was. She didn't know you and you didn't know her, she would have no reason to lie. That is the question a jury would have to debate. In every case I have ever heard about, the jury has ruled against the defendant in the "reasonable man" test. Lots of men do pretend to be minors in chat rooms to get their jollies. Pretending to be a minor can be against the law in some jurisdictions. For instance, you can't say you are 16 and enroll in high school when you are 18 or older. That would be against the law.

In a chat room, only a law enforcement officer or someone under the direction of a law enforcement officer can troll chat rooms looking for predators. These people that do under law enforcement direction are trained in what to say and what not to say in order to build the case. And they are heavily supervised.

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Quoting nite_riderusa

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In a chat room, only a law enforcement officer or someone under the direction of a law enforcement officer can troll chat rooms looking for predators. These people that do under law enforcement direction are trained in what to say and what not to say in order to build the case. And they are heavily supervised.

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While primarily true, it is not completely true.

For instance, if I sign onto a chat room under my daughter's name and someone begins and illegal conversation believing me to be my daughter, I can and should turn the conversation over to the police.

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Quoting THEAMAZINGCHAN

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so im a 55 year old man.
i can close this window and open a chat room.
i can say im a 14 year old girl and want sex.
and if people talk sex to me they are breraking the law?

then i can report them?
then they will get arrested?

is this true?
can this realy happen?
is it that easy?

well then

can i buy powdered soap
sell it as drugs and report the buyers?

where does it end..................................

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By the way, selling powdered sugar as cocaine is definitely a crime. I can quote statute if you want to give me a state, but the act, itself, is a crime independent of the actual quality of the drug in question.

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Quoting THEAMAZINGCHAN

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so im a 55 year old man.
i can close this window and open a chat room.
i can say im a 14 year old girl and want sex.
and if people talk sex to me they are breraking the law?

then i can report them?
then they will get arrested?

is this true?
can this realy happen?
is it that easy?

well then

can i buy powdered soap
sell it as drugs and report the buyers?

where does it end..................................

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Why do you want people to be able to chat to underage children in a sexual way with no repercussions?

Your arguments are disingenuous at best. I'd rather not say what the worst take on it would be.

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Quoting cyjeff

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While primarily true, it is not completely true.

For instance, if I sign onto a chat room under my daughter's name and someone begins and illegal conversation believing me to be my daughter, I can and should turn the conversation over to the police.



By the way, selling powdered sugar as cocaine is definitely a crime. I can quote statute if you want to give me a state, but the act, itself, is a crime independent of the actual quality of the drug in question.

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Yes but you would not be a person working under the direction of a peace officer for the express purpose of trolling for predators now would you. And if you do as a private citizen, I think it would be fairly easy to get a dismissal. When "Dateline NBC with Chris Hansen" first started out, nearly all the guys they interviewed got a dismissal. It was only after they started working with police departments that charges started sticking. But we are OT here.

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Quoting mmmagique

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Why do you want people to be able to chat to underage children in a sexual way with no repercussions?

Your arguments are disingenuous at best. I'd rather not say what the worst take on it would be.

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Quoting mmmagique

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Why do you want people to be able to chat to underage children in a sexual way with no repercussions?

OH I DO? I DID NOT KNOW THAT. THANK YOU FOR THE LABEL!
(see thats a point here this person thinks they can read my mind and my intent and in the process of playing "what if this happens" on a legal forum they have already judged me and placed me in a certain group.)

thats like me calling aardvark a vigilante instead of an advocate!

Your arguments are disingenuous at best. I'd rather not say what the worst take on it would be.

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argue? wow you're sensitive. you really cant tell the difference between banter and "what if" among a senior member and the group and a person with less than 3 posts asking how to plan a crime?

but i don't see you challenging the person who started the thread or calling them anything! why do you blame one person for what another has angered you on?

i guess you're not astute enough to see the depth and read between the lines here. i don't give a sheet about the actual "crime" of topic. i am asking about the way a ordinary citizen can act as a police and the validity of such things accumulated under such conditions.

its kinda like asking if i drive by your house and throw illegal porn in your yard are you a criminal or just made to look like a criminal? would the charges stick? can a random public person set you up for a crime? etc etc....

Jeff and nite_rider. good replies thanks!