My question involves a traffic ticket from the state of: California
I have 3 questions(at the bottom)
About a 3 weeks ago, I was driving behind a bus, headed home at about 12am. As the street intersection came near, I would be making a left in order to go home. The bus arrived at the intersection where the traffic light was green. I was the 2nd vehicle after the bus right before the intersection.
As the light turned green, I proceed to drive forward behind the bus and waited for the bus to create some distance between both our vehicles so I could make a safe left turn. I yielded to oncoming cars and when there were no cars coming in the other direction, I proceeded to make a left turn. After I made a left turn a motorcycle cop pulled me over and gave me a ticket for "CVC 22101(d) NO LEFT TURN SIGNS POSTED".
Little did I know that there were 2 sign posted stating "no left turn". One sign was posted about 20 feet above the traffic light on the other end of the intersection of my left turn, WAY out of the field of vision for drivers. Drivers dont focus on signs that may be posted 20 feet above a traffic light when the traffic light is already 20 feet above ground level. The other no left turn sign was posted on my end of the intersection, about 5 feet above the traffic light. I was unable to see neither because the bus blocked my field of vision. Because I was behind the bus, I was not able to see the signs. Not only did the bus block my field of view, it was also 12am. Driving at night I am concerned with making a safe left turn and yielding to on-coming cars, not focusing on a no left turn sign posted 20 feet above the traffic light where oncoming car's headlight would have blinded me from seeing them. If this is relevant, this bus also comes about every 20-30 minutes.
1)Is there any chance I may win If i decide to fight this case?
2)Will I be able to post-pone the court date on my citation?
I still have not yet received a courtesy notice and my court date on the citation is less than 14 days away. I do not have any paperwork except for the citation ticket i was issued.
3)Is there anything I can do to help my case besides pictures?
I clearly was unable to see the signs posted because of the bus and the fact that is was basically pitch dark(there are street light though). This would be my first ticket ever on my record. I also took pictures of the bus blocking the field of view; pictures of driver's view from inside the car with a bus in front of it.
Thanks
EDIT: I just called the number on the bottom of my citation and it says that there is no record yet of my citation and that it usually takes 4-6 weeks from the date of the citation issue and up to 90days to be processed.
What do I do?
No Left Turn Sign Violation
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10-02-2009, 09:34 PMSteezeNo Left Turn Sign Violation
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10-02-2009, 11:22 PMThat GuyRe: No Left Turn Sign ViolationI'm having a hard time picturing this... Are you saying that they had a 20 foot pole above the 12 foot pole that usually holds the light where that sign was posted?Quote:
Quoting Steeze
So there was another sign posted that you could have seen as you approached the intersection and right before you checked/yielded for cross traffic. Also, by the time that you got to that point, were you not glancing up at the light to see when it will change from green to red? Did you not see the sign then.Quote:
Quoting Steeze
You can check the Federal Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices and the related California MUTCD Supplement to see if those sign do in fact meet the requirement. If not, then you have a pretty good argument. If they do meet the requirement, and you still failed to see the sign, then you've got very little chance of prevailing in court.
But by the time you were in the intersection (checking cross traffic), the bus was long gone... Was it not?Quote:
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For the sign to meet the federal requirement, it should also be covered with reflective paint, allowing you to see it off of the refection of your headlights.Quote:
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And in addition to your concern with safety, you should also try to be aware of and abide by regulatory signs that restrict specific movements or actions...Quote:
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In my opinion, your only chance is if those signs are not in compliance with the manual I mentioned. In other words, it is highly unlikely that any of the excuses that you posted here will get you out of the citation. Just my opinion.Quote:
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Yes, you can request an automatic 60 day extension for your appearance date. You can do that online (at the court's website), over the phone (by calling the number on your citation) or by going to court and requesting it from the traffic clerk. You maybe able to get it extended even farther than 60 days but that might require a court appearance for you to get that.Quote:
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It takes a minimum of 21 days for the citation to be entered into the court system... Be patient, it will show up.Quote:
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The courtesy notice will just list your name, address, DL#, the offense charged, the citation number (all of which is information that you have on the citation) as well as your scheduled appearance date... it will also notify you of your fine amount (should be approximately $211) and whether you are eligible for traffic school on not (if you have not had any violations that you committed within the last 18 months which were dismissed after you attending traffic school, then you should be eligible). -
10-03-2009, 12:32 AMSteezeRe: No Left Turn Sign Violation
"I'm having a hard time picturing this... Are you saying that they had a 20 foot pole above the 12 foot pole that usually holds the light where that sign was posted?"
Yes, I am saying that, but it is not as wild as it may seem. There are a whole bunch of other signs posted as well. It looked like a mess when I went back there to snap some pictures.
"So there was another sign posted that you could have seen as you approached the intersection and right before you checked/yielded for cross traffic. Also, by the time that you got to that point, were you not glancing up at the light to see when it will change from green to red? Did you not see the sign then."
-There was another sign posted. Let me rephrase myself. There is one traffic light on the other end of the intersection, on the oncoming(left) side of the intersection, then there is another traffic light, on the right side of the intersection on my end. Both were blocked in my field of view by the bus. It may sound unreasonable, but when I took pictures of the intersection behind the bus, it was possible to not see both the signs because the bus itself is about 4 or 5 car lengths.
"But by the time you were in the intersection (checking cross traffic), the bus was long gone... Was it not?"
Because it was a bus, it had frequent stops and it was not long gone. However, being that it was 12am, there werent enough cars that made me wait long enough to make a safe left turn where the bus was long gone.
would it also help to try to contest it via trial by written declaration?
And the links you posted. If I understand correctly, the state of CA adopted the manual in 2006, but the manual is from 2003 correct? I can't seem to find where I would see if the signs posted are not in compliance with the manual...a little help? =)
thanks
EDIT: Would you recommend that I fight it via TBWD or just pay the fine and get traffic school so that I have a ZERO point record? If I do contest it via mail will I be able to do traffic school afterwards in the event that I do lose? I really want to have a 0 point record, even better, a record where I haven't been convicted of this infraction. -
10-03-2009, 02:37 AMThat GuyRe: No Left Turn Sign ViolationBut the “no left turn sign” is in fact posted, is it not?Quote:
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You can try you arguments... I'm not saying they won't work, I'm saying if I were the judge, I'd snicker, say “guilty” and move to the next case.Quote:
Quoting Steeze
Buses don't stop in the middle of the intersection. They either stop before crossing the intersection or after crossing the intersection. Point is, if you had to stop, even for a few seconds, to check cross traffic so you could turn left, you should have seen at least, one of the signs. If you didn't, its because you weren't paying attention.Quote:
Quoting Steeze
So earlier you said “the bus wasn't long gone”, now you're saying by the time you were making the turn, “the bus was long gone”!!!Quote:
Quoting Steeze
Whether you contest it by trial by declaration or by going to a regular trial, you'd have to present the court with a reasonable explanation as to why you didn't see either of the two signs... And “a bus was in front of you” isn't gonna cut it. Others may disagree.Quote:
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Correct.Quote:
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Got to Section 2B.19 - Turn Prohibition Signs (R3-1 through R3-4, and R3-18) which is on page “2B-22” of the California supplement, the second link I provided in my last post.Quote:
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You can try... But I cannot predict that outcome... The judge will decide.Quote:
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The upside to traffic school is that it will be dismissed, as if it never happened. The downside is that you'd have to pay the fine, the administrative fee, the cost for traffic school class... You need to make that decision.Quote:
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Some judges offer the traffic school option after a TBD or court trial, but most don't. So if you plead not guilty and opt for either a TBD or a court trial, you might not have the traffic school option afterwards.Quote:
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10-03-2009, 03:40 PMSteezeRe: No Left Turn Sign Violation
about the bus being lone gone. i guess im not being clear haha. what i meant was that the bus was not lone gone when i was stopping in the intersection to make sure no cross traffic was there. but i don't think that really matters for my case huh? lol
I thought traffic school was so that you get zero points when you complete it and that there is still a record in your file of what has happened.
About the procedures of showing up and court and all(contesting). Is it true that I can/it may be possible to postpone my court date 3 tmes before I cannot do it anymore?
If I understand correctly, my citation ticket says on or before 10/15/09. Since I already called the local court # on the citation and went through an automated system that told me that my citation isn't in their system yet, does that mean I need do something by myself before 10/15/09?
I'm somewhat confused on this part because I thought the court gives me a court date to appear and bail amount, but then the ticket says something about how i need to do something myself as well... If you could just clear that up for me...thanks!
Just wondering, where does your knowledge or this/experience come from?
You've been really helpful and I really appreciate it. -
10-03-2009, 04:29 PMThat GuyRe: No Left Turn Sign ViolationWell, I guess I'm not being clear either.... Unless you can prove that the light turned green and the bus moved forward a bit and stopped in the middle of the intersection thereby blocking your view of the sign then the whole entire bus story is not gonna prove that the sign was not visible.Quote:
Quoting Steeze
its not that it doesn't matter... more like doesn't make sense... Then again, I wasn't there to see exactly what went on.Quote:
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When you successfully complete traffic school, and after the completion certificate is submitted to the court, the citation is dismissed and therefore, is not reported to the DMV. Therefore, it does not appear on your record.Quote:
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You can get an automatic extension as I described above. Typically, that will be for 60 days from your original appearance date. If you need another extension, you would have to request one from the traffic clerk at the court. IF you still need a third one, then you will have to schedule a court date to see the judge. It depends on whether the judge will approve your request or not.Quote:
Quoting Steeze
It is not 10/15/09 yet... keep checking. If the ticket is still not in the system by that date, you should still appear in court on that date and request that the clerk give you proof that you did in fact show up (usually they stamp your ticket). After that, you need to continue to check until you either receive something from the court or until the ticket appears in the online system.Quote:
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Personal experiences, this and other forums as well an extensive amount of research that I do on a regular basis.Quote:
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No problem...Quote:
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10-03-2009, 05:11 PMSteezeRe: No Left Turn Sign Violation
http://simplesend.com/simple/uploade..._rapid_bus.jpg
so basically i am saying that i was behind the bus and because the bus was so long and wide, it blocked my field of view to see the signs posted. If is also helps, can I use the fact that the bus said a little caution saign saying " frequent stops" to help my case?
I've never been to the court so I'm still somewhat confused.
"It is not 10/15/09 yet... keep checking. If the ticket is still not in the system by that date, you should still appear in court on that date and request that the clerk give you proof that you did in fact show up (usually they stamp your ticket). After that, you need to continue to check until you either receive something from the court or until the ticket appears in the online system."
---so I go to the court that is on my citation and there will be someone at the counter whom i will show my citation ticket and then they should stamp it for proof that i showed up? What happens then after? the clerk puts it in the system or something?
Also, when I got pulled over I asked the officer if he could give me a warning(which I read they are able to do and if they say no I can't it can be referred to as meeting a quota which is illegal in the state of california? -
10-03-2009, 07:03 PMThat GuyRe: No Left Turn Sign ViolationWhat is that supposed to prove? How in any way is it suggesting that the sign was not viewable from where you were relative to a bus that proceeded along past the intersection where 2 “No Left Turn” signs are clearly posted???Quote:
Quoting Steeze
Do you think that the judge has never driven behind one of those buses?
Further, do think that the judge has not heard the same excuse from a ton of people before... And the main point behind all those people's gripe is “I didn't see the sign”... But that doesn't mean you could violate the laws that are enforced by its presence.
You can try... Its up to the judge to interpret it which ever way he/she wants.Quote:
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I doubt they enter it into the system and that's why you need to get some sort of proof from them that you did show up.Quote:
Quoting Steeze
Officers are not hired to give warnings. While they do sometimes do that, they have the ability to cite a driver if they do witness a violation. Obviously, in your case, the officer felt that a citation was the better option. As for your quota comment, and even if you can prove that the officer has a quota to meet, how does that in any way disprove that you in fact committed the violation??? Feel free to bring that up though, in my opinion, it is more likely to piss the judge AND the officer off while failing to benefit you in any way.Quote:
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10-03-2009, 09:53 PMSteezeRe: No Left Turn Sign Violation
Do you think the judge will know how many signs are posted at the intersection? Like does the judge actually do research on the case as well? (like going to the intersection or looking up where the signs are posted and how if its in the books) Or will he just go off from what the officer and I write?
Got to Section 2B.19 - Turn Prohibition Signs (R3-1 through R3-4, and R3-18) which is on page “2B-22” of the California supplement, the second link I provided in my last post.
you do mean page "2B-19" right? Because 2B-22 is about "Optional Movement Lane Control Sign (R3-6)"
http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/traffops/si...UTCD-Part2.pdf
thats what im looking at. I just want to make sure we're on the right page. I do have a question though, where it says the sign should be posted on near right and far left corners facing traffic, it doesn't list anything about how close the sign should be posted near the traffic light?
And if there are no signs posted, that means my case is dismissed right? How many points will I get for this violation? -
10-04-2009, 01:21 AMThat GuyRe: No Left Turn Sign ViolationNo.Quote:
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Do you honestly think that a Judge will get in his her car, drive to each location where a citation was written to check signage?Quote:
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He/she will go by what the officer says, as well as review/consider any evidence that you present which might prove otherwise.Quote:
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No, I meant Section 2B.19 which is on page 2B-22 (at the top right corner of the page) under the heading “Section 2B.19 Turn Prohibition Signs (R3-1 through R3-4, and R3-18)”Quote:
Quoting Steeze
Yes, if there are no signs posted then your case should be dismissed. But, seriously, how are you going to manage to prove that the signs are not posted if in fact they are???Quote:
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Furthermore, if you're going to use the argument that the bus blocked the sign, doesn't that, albeit indirectly prove that the sign is in fact posted and you just weren't attentive enough, to see it/don't want to face the fact that its there??? Think about it!
One point.Quote:
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10-04-2009, 02:11 PMSteezeRe: No Left Turn Sign Violation
I'm trying to think back and I'm not sure if im 100% correct or not but I remember that there were 2 posted signs for no left turn. The one at the far left corner of the intersection said "no left turn" and the one on the near right corner said "no left turn 4pm-6pm"
Again, I may be wrong(I will visit the intersection once more). But in the case that I am right, can I argue that the signs are not in compliance with the California MUTCD?
it states:
"Standard:
The No Right/Left Turn (R3-1/R3-2) sign shall be placed at an intersection to indicate that a right/left turn is prohibited.
Standard:
On two-way two lane roads (one lane each direction), the No Left Turn (R3-2) sign shall be placed on the near right corner and far left corner facing traffic approaching the intersection.
Option:
If signals are present, the R3-2 sign may be installed adjacent to the signal face viewed by motorists.
Guidance:
On two-way multi-lane roads, the No Left Turn (R3-2) sign should preferably be placed overhead over the left lanes, in the median adjacent to the left lanes, or at the far left corner facing approaching traffic where they will be most easily seen by drivers intending to turn.
Option:
When the movement restriction applies during certain time periods only, the following Turn Prohibition signing alternatives may be used and are listed in order of preference:
A. Changeable message signs or internally illuminated signs that are lighted and made legible only during the restricted hours.
B. A supplemental plate stating the applicable hours and days prohibited, mounted below the sign. The No Left Turn Specific Hours (R33(CA) and R33A(CA)) signs (see Figure 2B-3(CA)) may be used if left turns are prohibited during certain time periods.
So my question is, if the sign does in fact say no left turn from 4pm-6pm on the near right corner, and then the sign on the far left corner says "no left turn", can I make the argument that it isn't in compliance with the CA MUTCD and the fact that there are two different signs posted?
And if that is correct, will the judge send someone out to check the intersection confirm this(aka, doing investigation other than what i give the judge and what the officer gives)
and how does traffic school usually work? If I am guilty and the judge does let me do traffic school, my total amount I'd have to pay would be the $211 for the violation and traffic school fees(how much is that usually?)? -
10-08-2009, 02:39 PMSteezeRe: No Left Turn Sign Violation
I just called the infraction division and got an automated system like last time. The only thing different was that this time my citation has went through the system and my fine amount is $212.
Since the citation says to show up on or before 10-15-2009, should I wait and go to the infraction division on the 15th or before that? Is it possible that before the 15th I will get a courtesy notice saying when my court date is?
Thanks, and if anybody could answer my previous post....it would greatly be appreciated -
10-08-2009, 03:34 PMThat GuyRe: No Left Turn Sign ViolationYou can argue anything you want. But you'd be better off checking the signs first before you start building a defense that is based on inaccurate information.Quote:
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See my last answer...Quote:
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Again, no... the judge will weigh the evidence that is presented by the officer and you. If the officer says the signs are properly posted, then you'd have to show proof that he is incorrect. As I have stated before, the judge has better things to do than to go out or send someone out to drive around to check signs for each and every case they are adjudicating. Keep in mind that when you are in court, you are in fact under oath, so making statements that are untrue could get you in some serious trouble if the judge wants to. Its called “perjury” and it is a misdemeanor.Quote:
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Yes, if you plead guilty then you pay the fine, plus the traffic school administrative fee (ranges between $49 to $69 – depends on which court), plus when you sign up for traffic school, you have to pay for the class as well.Quote:
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If on the other hand you choose to fight the ticket, you may not have the option of traffic school if you are found guilty after your trial. It depends on the judge.
If you show up on 10/15 then you can go straight to the courtroom and your file will make it there automatically. If you show up before 10/15 then you have to go to the window, request that your file be sent to the courtroom and you'll have to wait until most of the cases that are on calendar for that day to be heard, then your name will be called.Quote:
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Easier and possibly less time consuming if you show up on the 15th. -
10-15-2009, 10:52 AMSteezeRe: No Left Turn Sign Violation
"If you show up on 10/15 then you can go straight to the courtroom and your file will make it there automatically. If you show up before 10/15 then you have to go to the window, request that your file be sent to the courtroom and you'll have to wait until most of the cases that are on calendar for that day to be heard, then your name will be called."
If I understand correctly, I will go to the courtroom today and then my file will make it there automatically. Then I'll be able to plead guilty or not guilty today? And if that is correct, how would i go about contesting the ticket via trial by delcaration? -
10-15-2009, 12:04 PMThat GuyRe: No Left Turn Sign ViolationWell, since you posted this at 10:52AM on 10/15, there's a very good chance that your file made it to the courtroom earlier this morning. There's also a pretty good chance your name may have been called already.Quote:
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Did your ticket not say "on or before 10/15/09 at 8:30am"? Or did it show another time??? -
10-15-2009, 12:22 PMSteezeRe: No Left Turn Sign Violation
It just said, "on or before 10/15/09"
there was a a palce right above or under(i forget) to fill out specific time and such but the officer didn't.
it jsut says on or before 10/15/09
and from my understanding, the court said it would close at 4:30pm. so if i go there before 4:30pm I should be ok? -
10-15-2009, 02:14 PMThat GuyRe: No Left Turn Sign ViolationYou're probably not going to get to see the judge today. You can try though...Quote:
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Most courts hold arraignments in the morning. Did you really think the judge sits there all day waiting for you to show up at your leisure?
(Court opens @ 8:30am -which is the time you're supposed to be there- the judge appears at 9 or 9:15 and calls the names off the calendar alphabetically).
If you can't see the judge today, then here are your choices:
-> Request an extension/reschedule your appearance date for a future date. Or...
-> Post bail, and request an in court trial. Or.....
->Post bail and request TBD. Or....
-> Plead guilty and request traffic school (if you're eligible). Or...
-> Plead guilty and pay the fine. -
10-15-2009, 05:56 PMSteezeRe: No Left Turn Sign Violation
Thanks.
I went down to the courthouse to the clerk and basically they scheduled an arraignment date for me...which is in early december. Is it me or does that seem somewhat odd?
The clerk told me after I appear at the arraignment that my trial(if i do plead not guilty) would be about 30 days later. If that is correct, I was issued the citation early-mid october and my trial date is early january???
And If i understand correctly, since my arraignment is in early december, I don't have to do anything until then? even if I want to pay the fine and do traffic school? I would just wait until the arraignment date right?
Thanks, you've been really helpful. -
10-16-2009, 02:10 AMThat GuyRe: No Left Turn Sign ViolationIts you... You missed you appearance. You didn't show up when you were supposed to. Therefore, and since the court has other cases besides yours, your appearance date gets pushhed farther... Nothing odd about that.Quote:
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Within 45 days from the arraignment date.Quote:
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Well, you should at least check the signs at the intersection to establish whether your "only" defense is in fact a valid one. If the signs are in order, why would you place yourself under another "odd" delay?Quote:
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If you're going to plead guilty and take traffic school, you can do that at any time between now and you arraignment date.Quote:
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10-16-2009, 02:17 PMSteezeRe: No Left Turn Sign Violation
So I went back to check the intersection and it turns out it looks like the signs are in order...and my only defense would be the bus situation, which I guess isn't much a defense against my citation...
Would it be stupid to hope that by postponing the trial date, if i do plead not-guilty, then requesting a trial by declaration that the citing officer may forget a lot of the things that happened and/or forget to submit his "side of the story"? Which would lead me to have a stronger "fight"?
And let's say that the officer does respond to the trail by delcaration, will his lack memory of the incident play a role in whether or not the judge will rule me guilty or not? Like if the cop forgets everything and when he submits his story its just a- "person failed to obey no left turn sign posted", do I stand a better chance at winning?