No Left Turn Sign Violation

I'm trying to think back and I'm not sure if im 100% correct or not but I remember that there were 2 posted signs for no left turn. The one at the far left corner of the intersection said "no left turn" and the one on the near right corner said "no left turn 4pm-6pm"

Again, I may be wrong(I will visit the intersection once more). But in the case that I am right, can I argue that the signs are not in compliance with the California MUTCD?

it states:
"Standard:
The No Right/Left Turn (R3-1/R3-2) sign shall be placed at an intersection to indicate that a right/left turn is prohibited.

Standard:
On two-way two lane roads (one lane each direction), the No Left Turn (R3-2) sign shall be placed on the near right corner and far left corner facing traffic approaching the intersection.
Option:
If signals are present, the R3-2 sign may be installed adjacent to the signal face viewed by motorists.

Guidance:
On two-way multi-lane roads, the No Left Turn (R3-2) sign should preferably be placed overhead over the left lanes, in the median adjacent to the left lanes, or at the far left corner facing approaching traffic where they will be most easily seen by drivers intending to turn.
Option:
When the movement restriction applies during certain time periods only, the following Turn Prohibition signing alternatives may be used and are listed in order of preference:
A. Changeable message signs or internally illuminated signs that are lighted and made legible only during the restricted hours.
B. A supplemental plate stating the applicable hours and days prohibited, mounted below the sign. The No Left Turn Specific Hours (R33(CA) and R33A(CA)) signs (see Figure 2B-3(CA)) may be used if left turns are prohibited during certain time periods.

So my question is, if the sign does in fact say no left turn from 4pm-6pm on the near right corner, and then the sign on the far left corner says "no left turn", can I make the argument that it isn't in compliance with the CA MUTCD and the fact that there are two different signs posted?
And if that is correct, will the judge send someone out to check the intersection confirm this(aka, doing investigation other than what i give the judge and what the officer gives)

and how does traffic school usually work? If I am guilty and the judge does let me do traffic school, my total amount I'd have to pay would be the $211 for the violation and traffic school fees(how much is that usually?)?

I just called the infraction division and got an automated system like last time. The only thing different was that this time my citation has went through the system and my fine amount is $212.

Since the citation says to show up on or before 10-15-2009, should I wait and go to the infraction division on the 15th or before that? Is it possible that before the 15th I will get a courtesy notice saying when my court date is?

Thanks, and if anybody could answer my previous post....it would greatly be appreciated

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Quoting Steeze

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Again, I may be wrong(I will visit the intersection once more). But in the case that I am right, can I argue that the signs are not in compliance with the California MUTCD?

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You can argue anything you want. But you'd be better off checking the signs first before you start building a defense that is based on inaccurate information.

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Quoting Steeze

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So my question is, if the sign does in fact say no left turn from 4pm-6pm on the near right corner, and then the sign on the far left corner says "no left turn", can I make the argument that it isn't in compliance with the CA MUTCD and the fact that there are two different signs posted?

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See my last answer...

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Quoting Steeze

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And if that is correct, will the judge send someone out to check the intersection confirm this(aka, doing investigation other than what i give the judge and what the officer gives)

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Again, no... the judge will weigh the evidence that is presented by the officer and you. If the officer says the signs are properly posted, then you'd have to show proof that he is incorrect. As I have stated before, the judge has better things to do than to go out or send someone out to drive around to check signs for each and every case they are adjudicating. Keep in mind that when you are in court, you are in fact under oath, so making statements that are untrue could get you in some serious trouble if the judge wants to. Its called “perjury” and it is a misdemeanor.

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Quoting Steeze

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and how does traffic school usually work? If I am guilty and the judge does let me do traffic school, my total amount I'd have to pay would be the $211 for the violation and traffic school fees(how much is that usually?)?

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Yes, if you plead guilty then you pay the fine, plus the traffic school administrative fee (ranges between $49 to $69 – depends on which court), plus when you sign up for traffic school, you have to pay for the class as well.

If on the other hand you choose to fight the ticket, you may not have the option of traffic school if you are found guilty after your trial. It depends on the judge.

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Quoting Steeze

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Since the citation says to show up on or before 10-15-2009, should I wait and go to the infraction division on the 15th or before that? Is it possible that before the 15th I will get a courtesy notice saying when my court date is?

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If you show up on 10/15 then you can go straight to the courtroom and your file will make it there automatically. If you show up before 10/15 then you have to go to the window, request that your file be sent to the courtroom and you'll have to wait until most of the cases that are on calendar for that day to be heard, then your name will be called.

Easier and possibly less time consuming if you show up on the 15th.

"If you show up on 10/15 then you can go straight to the courtroom and your file will make it there automatically. If you show up before 10/15 then you have to go to the window, request that your file be sent to the courtroom and you'll have to wait until most of the cases that are on calendar for that day to be heard, then your name will be called."

If I understand correctly, I will go to the courtroom today and then my file will make it there automatically. Then I'll be able to plead guilty or not guilty today? And if that is correct, how would i go about contesting the ticket via trial by delcaration?

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Quoting Steeze

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If I understand correctly, I will go to the courtroom today and then my file will make it there automatically.

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Well, since you posted this at 10:52AM on 10/15, there's a very good chance that your file made it to the courtroom earlier this morning. There's also a pretty good chance your name may have been called already.

Did your ticket not say "on or before 10/15/09 at 8:30am"? Or did it show another time???

It just said, "on or before 10/15/09"
there was a a palce right above or under(i forget) to fill out specific time and such but the officer didn't.

it jsut says on or before 10/15/09

and from my understanding, the court said it would close at 4:30pm. so if i go there before 4:30pm I should be ok?

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Quoting Steeze

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It just said, "on or before 10/15/09"
there was a a palce right above or under(i forget) to fill out specific time and such but the officer didn't.

it jsut says on or before 10/15/09

and from my understanding, the court said it would close at 4:30pm. so if i go there before 4:30pm I should be ok?

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You're probably not going to get to see the judge today. You can try though...

Most courts hold arraignments in the morning. Did you really think the judge sits there all day waiting for you to show up at your leisure?

(Court opens @ 8:30am -which is the time you're supposed to be there- the judge appears at 9 or 9:15 and calls the names off the calendar alphabetically).

If you can't see the judge today, then here are your choices:
-> Request an extension/reschedule your appearance date for a future date. Or...
-> Post bail, and request an in court trial. Or.....
->Post bail and request TBD. Or....
-> Plead guilty and request traffic school (if you're eligible). Or...
-> Plead guilty and pay the fine.

Thanks.

I went down to the courthouse to the clerk and basically they scheduled an arraignment date for me...which is in early december. Is it me or does that seem somewhat odd?
The clerk told me after I appear at the arraignment that my trial(if i do plead not guilty) would be about 30 days later. If that is correct, I was issued the citation early-mid october and my trial date is early january???

And If i understand correctly, since my arraignment is in early december, I don't have to do anything until then? even if I want to pay the fine and do traffic school? I would just wait until the arraignment date right?

Thanks, you've been really helpful.

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Quoting Steeze

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I went down to the courthouse to the clerk and basically they scheduled an arraignment date for me...which is in early december. Is it me or does that seem somewhat odd?

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Its you... You missed you appearance. You didn't show up when you were supposed to. Therefore, and since the court has other cases besides yours, your appearance date gets pushhed farther... Nothing odd about that.

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Quoting Steeze

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The clerk told me after I appear at the arraignment that my trial(if i do plead not guilty) would be about 30 days later.

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Within 45 days from the arraignment date.

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Quoting Steeze

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And If i understand correctly, since my arraignment is in early december, I don't have to do anything until then?

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Well, you should at least check the signs at the intersection to establish whether your "only" defense is in fact a valid one. If the signs are in order, why would you place yourself under another "odd" delay?

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Quoting Steeze

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even if I want to pay the fine and do traffic school? I would just wait until the arraignment date right?

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If you're going to plead guilty and take traffic school, you can do that at any time between now and you arraignment date.

So I went back to check the intersection and it turns out it looks like the signs are in order...and my only defense would be the bus situation, which I guess isn't much a defense against my citation...

Would it be stupid to hope that by postponing the trial date, if i do plead not-guilty, then requesting a trial by declaration that the citing officer may forget a lot of the things that happened and/or forget to submit his "side of the story"? Which would lead me to have a stronger "fight"?

And let's say that the officer does respond to the trail by delcaration, will his lack memory of the incident play a role in whether or not the judge will rule me guilty or not? Like if the cop forgets everything and when he submits his story its just a- "person failed to obey no left turn sign posted", do I stand a better chance at winning?